Many brands -- Volvo for instance (I know they costs more) -- have already done this. Lifespan of a product isn't the polution issue, it's the product cycle.

 

What else should I be gonig back and forth with you over? Unions are the only reason you've mentioned. And you're arguing the same damn point I am -- unions need to change or they'll die. You prove my point by bringing up Saturn -- the perfect corp./union experiment, and one that was wildly successful until both sides backed away from the ideals.

What cracks me up is that you think the "regulations" we live under would continue to exist if unions went away. I think that's painfull naive, but maybe I'm just too skeptical. Again, look at the devil's deal betwen WalMart and the DOJ.

And you might pay attention to what most strikes are about these days -- it ain't wages. I joined this company in bankruptcy because it has a chance to reform management/labor standards for the rest of the country. And even as we're clawing for survival, as I sit through negotiations on the "company" side of the table, I can tell you unions do have a purpose here.

We're not going to agree, it's like politics.

 

EARTH FIRST!!
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We'll mine the other planets later

 

Very well said. Union people are a bunch of lazy whiners who have no education and constantly want more and more, but do less and less. I am all for unions wanting protection and fair pay etc from their employers. But members use the union more like a weapon against the company more than anything. The last company "Pratt & Whitney" I worked for had the most ignorant union workers I have ever seen. I think their average pay was 20s or higher per hour, and they get double time on weekends. I was new at the time, and I kindly asked one of them for records to which he replied "what the fk do you want it for?". Talk about unprofessional low lives. To get my work done I had to bring out the hot female assistant just so they would give HER the information.

Anyway, my point is, the idea of Unions are great, but it is so overly abused by its lazy good for nothing members.

 

[quote="engifineer"]I will give you one reason the american manufacturers are having such a hard time financially .....quote]

I dont disagree on everything you say. But you quoted me as saying that it was unions alone which prompted that response.

 

from what i'v heard companies like GM(just an example do to it's size) wouldn't have so many of these problems if they'd payed top management a little less, and do away with the golden parachutes. i mean it makes sense, ok so you pay someone who maks millions 100k less for a couple of years, like he/she really needs to be making that much, in the long run it will save the company.

 

Wow.. Really pushed a button here. But I am really glad to see everyones feedback. Did not expect this to turn into a Union thing, but that is what forums are all about. Expressing our oppinions.

 

[quote="engifineer"]

[quote="engifineer"]I will give you one reason the american manufacturers are having such a hard time financially .....quote]

That's fine and dandy, but you've the only problem you've spelled out is unions.

 

<- UNION WORKER

I work for an American auto-making company. I am in a union. And I can safely say that, within my company, the union is BY FAR the lowest item on the list that is hurting our plant. We have engineers that design stations on the line without ever seeing them in real life, and they screw them up beyond recignition, then spent months of time and company money RE-designing and RE-building these stations... I should know, I work on a team where the final job is dropping the crankshaft.. The company decided that we needed a new station.. The old one was fine, but ok.. new station it is... We never once saw an engineer visit the site, and 6 months later, they had paid $150k in new hoists, conveyers, tables, and a press.. Well guess what buddy? It all didn't fit, and what's more, the place that you now have to walk through has a huge pillar right in the middle of it that goes to the cieling that some engineer 'overlooked'. So there so far is $150k in equip, + whatever it cost to pay the engineers and others working on the project for 6 months.. And then, it took them another 6 months to develope fixes for the problems, and it still isn't right. Our engineers are not union, btw.

Next - Oh look here, it's a block with a huge ___ ding on the pan rail.. We have a template that you can set on the block and if the ding is in a clear zone on the template, we call quality, and they come assess the situation (they are known as EQA, and are union).. So EQA comes down, looks at the block and says that this ding will cause an oil leak, reject it.. ok, no big deal, 1 bad block... A few down the line we find another like the first.. call EQA, reject... And so on and so on, until we get about 5.. After 5 or so, EQA calls the higher-ups in blockline, and calls higher-up management, business unit managers, etc (all non-union, management people who's job it is to keep the line moving and crank out more and more engines)... Keep in mind, these are not the people trained to decide whether parts are good or bad... They come down, look at the blocks, see the nice, big dings on the pan rail... How do they solve a problem with blocks that will leak oil? Well, the solution is simple for management.. They take away our template so we can't tell if they are bad or not, then tell us to "Run 'em". .... ........ Man, the union is ruining our company there...

So there is your quality side of the Union vs. the company in an American plant...

As for wages, I've already been here through one contract negotiation.. We voted in the new contract by 9 votes I believe? I don't remember exact numbers, but we have about 900 or so Union employees on the floor across 3 shifts.. You know how many of them make the $18-$20 you were talking about earlier? Prolly about 50-60 of them, if that.. Now, I'm sure you know what inflation is.. And we all know that inflation causes minimum wage to go up every few years, blah blah blah to keep everything in balance.. If we did not have unions and contract negotiations, you know what the company would do? Not pay you more, even as cost of living, etc rises due to inflation. And our company isn't stupid.. They bumped up our $ per hour just enough to make people almost accept it.. Then they threw in a $1000 signing bonus.. Which after taxes, etc, people were getting around $600 out of it.. $600 means nothing for a 5 YEAR contract, but alot of the people working in factories are single moms with 4 kids who see $1000 for signing a piece of paper and jump on it.

Union dues.. oh man, these are so evil, engifineer.. Protection money as it's called I guess, lol.. $25 to join, $10 a month.. All this money goes to paying for our union hall (yes, an actual building where union members can go to any time they please), it pays our shop stewarts across all 3 shifts (these guys are kinda like your job lawyers in case you get in trouble, or peacemaker if you are having problems with a coworker, etc etc).. The dues also go into lotto type things we do every so often, and charities.

I don't understand how you think it's protection money.. Who exactly gains all this money? It all goes out.. The only persons getting paid by the union are the shop stewarts.. And wow, it's .50$ more an hour..

I guess that's all I have to say, hehe.. In conclusion, imo, what ruins american products is money-grubbing upper-management who, when you are getting hired, they tell your Quality is #1. They put up big posters all over the plant saying QUALITY #1, and other rediculous things... But when it really comes down to it, they will use bad parts before they shut down the line and fix the problem.. And yes, it's their call whether to use bad parts or not.. But who gets blamed if the problem makes it to the customer? We do.

 

I agree with xbassist. It isnt all unions its engineering and management too. Its everyones fault in some way. Unions can be lazy and I know some plants where they dont do anything. Engineers design parts and work stations without ever seeing them in person. Management shoots down good ideas from everybody because it might cost a little more in the short term. By the way to the person that said Jap cars just last longer than American cars is stupid. Take care of it and just about anything will last just fine. If you dont then it wont. Its as simple as that. One car isnt better because of where its built.

 

No, it doesn't matter where the car is built. However, it DOES matter WHO built the car. You can take care of your Dodges/Chevies/Fords all you want, but an equally maintained Japanese (not necessarily built in Japan) car will outlast almost any American counterpart.

Look at ANY reliability/quality/long-term cost/problems per 100 vehicles list. Japanese are ALWAYS on top, and most American/European cars are on the bottom. Hmm I guess it's because all BMW, Volkswagen, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Mercury, Cadillac, Dodge, etc, etc. owners just don't care of their cars and all Nissan, Honda, Toyota owners do.

Right....

 

i didn't read any of the replies to this but if cars lasted forever, how would the companies make a lot of money? sure parts and junk, but nothing beats the profit made from people buying whole new cars from them.

also, products not made to last is not just a trait found in car companies. it appears with any electronic product, especially computers. maybe it's on purpose, maybe it's not, but think about how many times your electronic things have died and you needed to buy a new one. even repairing them costs money that contributes to someone's income and keeps the world moving 'round.

 

What are you talking about? Honda has UAW workers in some of their American factories and they don't turn out crap products. Its bad design and management that are killing American car companies, not unions. UAW workers don't design Pontiac Aztecs or Chevy cavaliers, they just build them. Not to mention many American cars are built in Mexico and Korea (dodge neon and Chevy aveo come to mind). Please do some research before regurgitating stuff you heard from Rush Limbaugh and fox news.

 

Figured I would poke a bees nest on that one

First, I have nothing against union workers personally, so sorry if I sounded a little aggressive in my post. I have an issue with the power that the union has. And I know that there are good things that come out of it. The issue is when the unions power ends up damaging the comapny itself, which has and will continue to happen.

Second, to the Rush type comment.. I am talking from personal experience, I clearly stated that.

Finally, I dont want to make enemies over political views, because we all know that no two people will ever agree. I made my points, you guys made yours... that is all good and cool.. but lets not get any more worked up over it.

 

engifineer,

You are naive and ignorant.


Weekends, 40 hour work week, healthcare, pensions, safety............all brought to you by................UNIONS. If you think that workers are better off without unions then you have never had a working man's job. The only way to counteract the strong arm of management is a union. Engifineer, you are so full of it "If you dont like what you are getting paid.. go somewhere else, YOU agreed to the pay when you take the job". When you work at a company for many years and still get minimum wage, and a company like walmart posts massive profits, and you get no corresponding increase in pay, who is going to go to bat for you? The government..ha! Why should the working man not share in the success of the company, they sure share in the failures (united pension funds). When companies can just dump thier legal obligations to thier workers without consequence who is going to protect the workers? My friend and his dad just lost thier pensions at united, while the CEO got a multimillion dollar payout. Now you tell me is that fair? Who is going to complain about that injustice?.......the government...ha! The only thing that stands between my friend and total wipeout is the union.

You also wrote "IMO unions should be BANNED from the american marketplace in order to defend our failing companies." Our companies such as GM are failing because of crappy engineering and management complacence. GM did not change the the cavalier for 15 years, no japanese company would ever do that. Failing US companies need to do just that, fail. If they made good products people would buy them. Look at the new GTO, what a piece of crap!!! 400hp and it looks like a grand AM, whick looks like a bonneville, which looks like a G6, which looks like a cavalier. Unions protect worker rights. when your IT job goes to India you will be wishing you had a union to back you up.

 

ah, i hate politics. it can make smart people look stupid and stupid people look smart. and so, whatever.

 

i remember that somewhere along 80% of the pollution that comes from cars is only from abotu 3% of the cars on the road.... (which are the very very old ones)

i am probably off but it's something ridiculous like that

 

if that's true, then tell it to the state of california so i can get my injen intake and not have to worry about the CARB finding out one day.

 

I agree with everybody on various levels as to what has already been posted.

One issue dragging on companies, not just automobile companies, is that of paying pensions and such. I understand the responsibility of paying those pensions as they have been promised for decades. That's well and good, but I think it is incredible lack of foresight for those companies.

Personally, I don't like such socialized institutions such as Social Security or private forms of that such as pensions. As a young worker, I invest into a 401k and will build substantial savings over my working life. I expect to retire off of this in my late 60's or even later, not to live off the government or younger workers trying to get started in life.

I undestand unique circumstances and disability situations, but for the average, able-bodied worker I see no reason that they cannot manage their own finances to retire. This is a much more fair system than hoping against hope that Social Security will exist in any beneficial capacity in forty years or so when I retire.

In addition, there's the problem with overpaid executives who seek short term Wall Street success rather than long term happiness for workers and customers. I have a different philosophy on this issue than most as I value the workers above individual customers. People have this flawed idea that 'the customer is always right'. Bull. Totally untrue, and this is something I've told to my own customers with the understanding that noone is ALWAYS right. Life is about taking personal responsibility, not giving into the customer's every whim. As a worker, I seek to make money to live on, as do my coworkers. If I were in management, my goal would be to provide a reasonable income to the employees. A lot of employers forget this, that they are primarily in the business of giving jobs that people can live on, with the secondary business of a product to sell to customers. Too many companies have lost touch with the lower level workers. This is probably the greatest cause of the problems with any company.

 

planned obsellescence = companies make more if you just go out and buy another, as opposed to repair what you have now. This explains why some things are made so cheaply now as opposed to 50 years ago, when they built things with quality & time. (this doesnt apply to everything, but things like appliances and such are like this; obviously cars today are better than cars 50 years ago but you get my drift)