Rexpelagi

Well, done with autocross for the year. Today was a lot of fun though so I guess it made for a good send-off.

I didn't notice much difference in the brakes, but the car did seem to be rotating well. It's hard to say if that's because of the brake pad bias or the temperature (it was around 40° F today). I didn't notice the ABS doing much but I'm pretty sure the brakes can engage it, so that's good. I didn't get a lot of evaluation time because I was driving an H-Stock Mazda 3 for half the runs.

That being said, I think the reason I don't feel much ABS involvement is because of how poor the brake pedal feels. The Mazda 3's brakes felt leagues better than mine, it really surprised me. It took several runs in the 3 just to get used to a brake pedal that had some firmness to it. I was braking way too aggressively because full travel in the Mazda was only about half travel in the tC. I don't understand what is wrong with the tC or if this is just how the tC's brakes feel. The best way I can describe it is absolute mush. Maybe I should try the brake pedal in another tC and use that as a benchmark.

Everything looked ok while doing my pads. I replaced and bled the fluid, but I didn't feel much difference. The pads and rotors are obviously new. I think I may replace all the shims and the hardware this weekend and see if that does anything. If not I guess that's just how the tC's brakes are.

Edit: If anyone wondered, I was faster in the tC by a 1/2 second on the morning course and a full second faster in the afternoon (we try to run two courses each event), and I know I left time on both courses. The brakes felt better in the Mazda 3, but the steering and handling felt much tighter in the tC. I felt like the 3 was a bit vague, but it's probably just what I'm used to.

sciontc_mich

^^ have you ever had the master cylinder checked? sounds like there might be air in it.. My tC isn't mushy at all.. very firm pedal..

Rexpelagi

I used a vacuum bleeder hooked up to compressed air to bleed all 4 corners. I also pumped the brake pedal occasionally while the bleeder was connected. That should be able to remove any air present in the system correct?

sciontc_mich

nope that's not the same as bleeding the master cylinder, that's just bleeding the brake lines.

WendysOrBust

From my brake experience this is what I run in my car and I love it, dusty and noisy but I love it. I run the Re01r's (very sticky tire) and I manage to get a hard bite lock when my pads are warmed up and they just feel fantastic once you put some heat in them. I run the hp pluses in the front and the ebc greens in the rear. Awkwardly enough the ebc's are noisier than the hp pluses and screetch after they warm up. I applied the provided hp plus "race" grease on the back side too.

They say the hp pluses are hard on rotors but mine still look in good shape and I love the growling sound they make. Again these work better after you have a little heat in them but once they're up to temp they make all 4 tires bark on a hard stop. Good stuff and they are miles better than the hps I used to have.

Like Rex said though, I have a friend with a MazdaSpeed 3 and the pedal feel is ten fold what it is on my Tc. It might be due to the fact that our brakes system is nearly identical to that of a Celica, however the Celica was about 300lbs lighter than the Tc. So I've come to the realisation that its either a weak Master cylinder or were overpowering the brake system.

sciontc_mich

hmmm i've never had a mushy or weak pedal on the tC. Even with the stock pads, the stopping distance wasn't the same as performance pads, but the pedal still felt the same.

I did test drive a tC before this and the pedal felt camry-mushy. I'm wondering if people need to inspect the master cylinder!

Rexpelagi

I felt the brake pedal in another tC today and it felt very similar. It sounded like he had been chasing a similar issue (assuming it's not just the tC), even going so far as to replace the master cylinder (which he said had no effect).

If the engine is off the brake pedal builds pressure very quickly (similar to how the Mazda 3 felt while running) and is quite firm, however as soon as the car is running it turns to mush. If air does for some reason get trapped in the master cylinder what is the easiest way to check and/or get it out?

sciontc_mich

here is the procedure to bleed air from the master cylinder from the service manual. Hopefully you could try this to get the air out? Sure sounds like it's air in the system. Because I really don't have any mush in my brake pedal.. hmm well here you go.. maybe try this?

1. FILL RESERVOIR WITH BRAKE FLUID
Fluid: SAE J1703 or FMVSS No. 116 DOT3
2. BLEED MASTER CYLINDER

HINT:
If the master cylinder has been disassembled or if the reservoir
becomes empty, bleed the air out of the master cylinder.
(a) Using SST, disconnect the brake lines from the master
cylinder sub–assy.
SST 09023–00101
(b) Slowly depress and hold the brake pedal.
(c) Cover the outer holes with your fingers, and release the
brake pedal.
(d) Repeat (b) and (c) 3 or 4 times.
(e) Using SST, connect the brake lines to the master cylinder
sub–assy.
SST 09023–00101

Torque: 15 NVm (155 kgfVcm, 11 ftVlbf)

pinoyFMtC

Autocrossed on the 18th, got some bad brake fade on one of the corners. Pushed the brake, and almost nothing happened. And the pedal felt a little weird. That resulted in a DNF haha. I read this thread and it seems that people are happy with the Ultimates and HPS, but I'm also considering StopTech?

CDogbert

Are you sure that wasn't ABS? I'd be a little surprised if you cooked the brakes autocrossing a relatively stock tC, unless it was a really long high-speed course.

Thorium06

iTrader: (5)

ppir has long courses, i cooked stock pads down there in the tc and the tl. its not rare to see speeds around 80 miles an hour then have to slow all the way. by the way if you want to test out the ultimates just let me know

CDogbert

That's actually terrible course planning...

Thorium06

iTrader: (5)

yeah its not technically ideal autocross according to the rules, but its a hell of alot of fun!!! especially going through a slalom pinned in 3rd!

pinoyFMtC

Yeah, I've had the ABS kick in plenty of times, and this definitely wasn't it haha. Pedal felt way different. Plenty of sharp corners after going 60 or more. And the winter events are more for fun, less about competition so maybe that's why the course was like that?

Okay, I'll let you know.

Thorium06

iTrader: (5)

yeah they definitely like to experiment with interesting features during the winter series, sometimes they will throw in a more gymkana style parts of the course. i really like the winter series though lots of variety and lots of runs!

Rexpelagi

I was at the dealership today getting my oil changed, so I went over to the salesman who sold me my car and asked if I could sit in a tC they had on the lot and try the brake pedal. He probably thought I was strange but oh well, he let me sit in the car and start it, then I tested out the pedal.

I have now tried 3 tC brake pedals (mine, my classmate's 2005, and the 2008 they had on the lot) and all the pedals felt the same to me. I think the tC just has a soft brake pedal. It does get firm, but it requires more travel and never quite gets as firm as I would like. Oh well...