Gripking

iTrader: (4)

not saying they "cause" bouncing but with my experience on my EG6 back in 2001 I had tokico illuminas on skunk2 sleeves and they were bouncy as all hell. I couldnt stand driving on the highways. thats just from my experience. at that time i told myself never again. it was more bouncy than the tokicos on my tien s techs (at the time) and than my current racelands. do you have those sleeves/ setup now?

jenn[tC]

maybe it was the springs that the coilovers use? Ground controls use Eibach race springs. I currently run this setup and I am very please with it. I got my shocks for 400 and the sleeves for 400. It outperforms any setup in that price range and even many outside of it. I would stay away from teins. While they are a decent product, they are quite expensive and cannot be revalved in the u.s. so you either need to send them to japan or just buy new ones.

i run 450lb in the front and 350lb in the rear

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

hmmmm .....all these options have me thinking!! gahhh lol - thank you again everyone!!

One-Nut_McGee

I got my KWs from Fastscions.com. Give them a call and ask for Joseph if you're on the West coast.
http://www.fastscions.com/Scion-tC-KW-Suspension-Variant-2-Coilover-Kit-15258002.aspx

If you're on the East coast I recommend giving Paul at Dezod a call to see about getting them from him.
http://www.dezod.com/pd_kw_variant_2_coiloverstc_05.cfm

Depending on if either place has them physically in stock or not, the wait time might be a little longer. Mine had to be shipped straight from the factory in Germany so it took a while to get 'em. Well worth the wait in my opinion.

I've run them for about one full season Auto-x and a lot of testing time. I've also done a bunch of track days at the local racetrack and have played around with the setup some there as well to adjust for the higher speeds and elevation changes. The units have a lot of adjustability and are very responsive. They MIGHT be able to lower you a lot and give you a cool stance, but I personally don't give a damn about looks so I've never tried it.

Does that help? Let me know if you have more questions.

One-Nut_McGee

The revalving problem is what I was talking about in my uber long post earlier about the Teins. Tein DOES however have a spot down in California (although I'm not sure where) that they have Tein techs that CAN revalve your shocks for you without having to ship to Japan. I think there's only that one place in the States that does it though.

Also, the bouncing you were feeling was unlikely to be the springs and was more likely the shocks. If you're lower than the shocks can handle, they'll be outside their operating range and act strangely (typically bouncing) and they'll experience valve failure pretty quickly. A bouncy car is almost always a weak, broken, or failing shock.

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

As long as the car is sitting lower than stock height thats all that matters to me fromm a stance perspective how do you adjust them? are they noisy? (thats a big gripe of mine with the RL) What other suspension modifications do you have? A little off topic but what tires do you use? Are there any cons with the COs? Do you use a camber kit? lol i know a million questions. I just like to be REALLY informed before spending :D thanks again bud

One-Nut_McGee

Don't ever stop asking questions. Ever. Chances are there are tons of other people with the exact same question, but are too scared of getting laughed at or teased to ask them. It's always better to look the fool to become the genius, than be the fool that pretends to be the genius.

I'm lowered around 1.5-1.6 from the stock height, I've gone as deep as 1.8 to try out a different setup and to measure the roll center of the car. It seems that our suspension's geometery doesn't like to go too far past 1.5 inches lower than stock height before the roll center starts to increase again. Here's a picture of my stance at the current ride height with the current wheels/tires. Sorry it's not a better picture...this one doesn't show top of the bottom of the wheel arch.





Current upgrades list:

• KW V2 coilovers
• PowerSlot Slotted front/rear rotors
• Hawk HP+ front brake pads
• Axxis Ultimate rear brake pads
• Agency Power SS brake lines (rubber coated)
• TRD strut tower bar
• TRD rear sway bar
• TRD leather ball shift **** (best $25 I've ever spent)
• NST Short shifter bracket
• NST metal shift bushings
• Braille 11.5 lbs battery
• Doctor Isotope delrin shifter cage bushings
• Enkei RPF1 17x8.5 +40 (Dan Gardner edition) wheels
• BFGoodrich G-Force TA KDW nt2 (245x40x17 FRONT. 225x45x17 REAR)
• Rear seats, spare tire, jack, tools, rear interior panels removed
• Doctor Isotope front splitter
• Charge Speed driver/passenger seat (Not yet installed)

Yes, there are tons of drawbacks to coilovers. Any time you change something away from stock you're going to have pros and cons that you're going to need to value to your personal likes/dislikes. Coilovers are typically stiffer both in spring rates and damping and even with the ability to adjust the damping, you're likely going to be stiffer than the OEM shocks either way. Keep this in mind that you're going to have a stiffer ride than any OEM tC suspension. My guess is that this is a moot point for you because you're already on the Raceland "suspension."

Adjustment is pretty straightforward and is similar to all other coilovers I've seen/used. Height adjustment is done through the bottom perch and it essentially adjusted by turning the perch up/down on the shock body and compressing or allowing the spring to extend. Damper adjustments are done with what looks like a 2mm allen wrench and you just turn the valve adjuster at the top of the shock.

Other things that are drawbacks (to some people) is the noise. You can definitely hear the springs pop and creak sometimes and there is definite noise from the valves inside the dampers releaving pressure. Take this information as only personal experience, because my car is almost entirely stripped so I hear a LOT of things most people with full interiors will never hear.

You will not need a camber kit at all if you're not lowering too far (which it sounds like you won't). I currently run -2.0 front and -1.5 (or -1.7, can't remember now) in the rear. That should be plenty to clear almost all wheels, because it's currently clearing my 17x8.5 wheels with 245/40/17 tires in the front. If your rims/tires are thinner than those and you're not lowering past 2 inches, you're fine with the stock camber adjustments.

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

nice! yea i could care less if im laughed at really and agree on your opinions on asking questions! Im sure this thread will be read by many in the future so we should keep it goin! lol


very nice list of mods! i cant see the pic as im at work (im a techy with lots of time on my hands lol) but when i get home its the first thing im doin!! lol

Is there really a significant difference in the slotted rotors vrs non? and what does upgrading the brake lines do? always wondered. i have more questions but i just got busy. brb soon if not eventually.. thanks again!!!

DJ08tC

JIC's are awesome but the only way i would put that much money down for coils is if i was going to get into major racing, not just every few months or so. I dont know what you situation is,

but good luck on whatever you get.

AcidDrop

iTrader: (4)

what about the H&R coilovers and rear sway bar?

FlintC

thought about ground controls as well before with a higher rate. what rate would be best handling wise paired with hotchkis sways and koni yellows? i need something to tide me over til i can get full coilovers. would it be an improvement over htechs? im beginning to hate them.

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

get the ground control sleeves sounds like people use them. you planning on tracking with them? Keep us updated if you do

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

H&R makes great products never heard anything wrong with them (ever). I havent heard anything on the CO's. Rear sway is a must if you plan on going to the track with them.

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

im really tempted to track the racelands at tomorrows auto X but im really sceptical. Maybe once I have my upgrades in hand I can track them with no worries.

One-Nut_McGee

AcidDrop - If you want some information on the H&R brand, try spending some time on VWvortex.com. H&R are usually run by the Euro guys and I'm sure they'll have better feedback on them than we will. I personally have never heard anything bad about them either, but it never hurts to check out what the people actually running them will say.

GripKing - In my opinion, don't risk your very nice car at the auto-x course on some completely garbage $250 coilovers. Nothing good can come of it and if you're already skeptical now, you can damn well be sure that it's not going to end well. Your car tells you a lot of things and as the driver it's your job to listen....your skepticism is because the car is telling you to not make it commit suspension failure induced suicide.

I'm not sure who it was on this forum, but someone spent well over $2,000 on wheels alone (not even including the tires), but then went out and spent $250 on the suspension that supports those wheels. I didn't say anything in his/her thread because I didn't want to hijack at all, but I died a little bit inside. Suspension may not LOOK sexy and you can't brag about it in pictures on the internet, but you have to understand that the only thing supporting your ___ is that suspension you have. Never skimp on suspension, especially if you're planning to race it.

Now I'm not saying everyone will benefit from coilovers, and in fact I would caution that most people won't have any need for coilovers at all. I'm just saying that if you're going to change your suspension away from the OEM equipment, please don't skimp and try to cheap out on it.

Unless you are tracking your car at a big track or are using some pretty advanced braking techniques you won't need slotted rotors. The slotting only helps to control the temperatures and while that helps prevent brake fade under consistent heavy braking it'll just be a marginal upgrade at best for street/mild auto-x use. Save your money and go with some high quality blanks. (Blanks are non-slotted, non-drilled...just the flat looking rotors you have now)

Upgrading the brake lines helps to prevent bulging in the lines under extreme pressure inputs, but frankly, this is preventative maintenance more than something required. Most rubber hoses are more than capable at doing this, but brake lines should be considered maintenance item and need to be replaced after some time as they tend to wear out.

Upgraded brake lines lengthen the amount of time needed between servicing and provide a more consistent level of braking when you're braking at the limit as stainless steel lines don't have as much potential for flexing as the rubber lines do. Honestly though - similar to brakes and coilovers - most people won't benefit from upgrading to SS lines unless they're planning on putting their braking system through some serious work. If your old lines need to be replaced anyway, you might as well go SS as they're not that much more expensive and you're already going to be doing the work...otherwise, stick with the stock lines and save your money/time.

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

amen to that bro - and you are right as a driver you can tell what your car is begging for. Im at 104k miles on my 05 lol..im taking it all the way untill it blows or 250k which ever comes first.. (i eventually plan on getting a new motor to rebuild or just replace) it needs a "100k service" as per the scion service tech. But when I took my car to midas high performance shop to align my car (they have a speacial lift for lowered cars) He told me everything was in great shape after their inspection (i take care of her :D ) minus i needed to flush my radiator and powersteering to refill which i can do (no biggie). So I dont know who to trust the scion service clerk (sits at his desk all day and claims to me that the scion is a family car and shouldnt be ran hard..@$$wad) or the midas people.. i do think its not as responsive as it used to be.. though i feel like this is more with the tires/suspension. Becuase before I installed the RLs the car was running just fine.

about the brakes I think im still gunna do the upgrade, not only do I plan on Auto Xing, but I like to take it to Homestead speedway for test n tune drag, and there is also the sebring street car event (test n tune followed by a race) that have a portion of the track open. Sebring is my favorite track of all time. I am beyond lucky to have it in driving distance. Next year you can expect to see me running my baby :D

So yea its a DD atm but at the same time i own my car and dont plan on selling it. Its my project car for life eventually i'll get a crx or something cheap as my DD and park it the TC in the garage for tuning and drive on track days.. (cant wait!!) yea this thread seems like its never going to end lol...

I figured since im chaging the brakes and all might as well install new brake lines.. so SS over rubber? or just OEM? - i think they need replacing just becuase of 100k

One-Nut_McGee

Ok, there are a lot of things to respond to here so I broke it down to the sections needing response.

It's a Toyota...you don't need a new motor just because it's 104k, just save your money and let it run until it won't run at all, then get it rebuilt or a new one. If you take care of a Toyota motor it'll last longer than you will.

You DO need a 100k tune up. some of your ancillary items on your motor should be considered replace items now that you've gotten this far. Things like water pump, timing belt, and some other stuff like that DO need to be changed around 100k.

The Midas tech is more than certified to tell you about all the suspension, fluids, and easy to check items, but he's only checking surface items for the most part. Yes the Scion tech sits at a desk all day, but that doesn't make him any less knowledgeable about cars (I sit at a desk all day...) and he likely knows more about your specific car than the Midas tech who just has general knowledge about ALL cars instead of just yours. Not saying you don't take care of the car, but you WILL need to get that 100k if you want to be sure it'll last to 200k.

Radiator and power steering flushes are fine and normal, no big deal there. Just take your time and make sure you do it right, but it's not too hard.

I'm not even going to say anythign about the car handling better BEFORE the Raceland "suspension" went in. You said it yourself and I've already made my point. No need to belabor it and sound like an obsessive hater.

Wow, you are both incredibly lucky and a bastard at the same time, haha. I'm so jealous. I'd love to hit Sebring! If you're planning on going bigger and bigger into the track scene, the upgraded brakes are a good choice and they won't hurt your DD ability. Stick with slotted and stay away from drilled, unless you like changing brake rotors pretty often to avoid cracking.

Project car for life, jeez you sound just like me. I'm of the same mindset. I made my choice after a lot of thinking and don't have any plans to "upgrade" to something else until I wad this thing up on some racetrack somewhere.

I'd recommend NOT getting a CRX strictly because they're too damn fun. I know it sounds weird, but if you get a CRX, you'll just start modding the hell out of that too and then you'll have two track cars and need to get another car for a DD. It's a vicious cycle, stick with something super cheap and super boring. I'd recommend a used early-90's Camry or something equally boring, but easy to fix.

I'm personally going to look into a truck so I can tow my tC to and from the track. When I get a little farther along in my goals the car will be on the questionable side of street-legal, so a truck and trailer will probably be my next DD and purchase.

Yes, if you're changing out the brakes you're going to be in there already, just switch up to the SS lines. Make sure that you get SS lines that are rubber coated though. Stainless steel braiding is awesome for strength and durability, but it's also a great chainsaw. It'll cut right through your ABS line and wheel speed sensor if it breaks free from it's bracket and starts to rub against anything.

Gripking

iTrader: (4)

its great to be able to share, get feed back and ask questions. Not only Nut Mcgee but everyone else that has posted in this great thread in the making. Almost a guide to how to fine tune you TC into the track scene the right way. If anyone has questions or comments please feel free to add. Im sure ive asked alot of questions people either are affraid to ask or just have been curious about. Im sure theres someone out there reading this thread with questions! Ask away! the more the better! once again a BIG thank you!


MCgee about your tire sizes you went with a thicker profile on the front than the back or i may have it backwards.. lol . I imagine this is for traction? why not all the same size?

also what tire psi do you use for track days? Would the track layout change the tire pressure you use? ( i ask becuase im a huge f1 fan and i notice how they always talk about tire pressures) i imagine same applies for auto x. Im not tryin to ask you to throw out all your hard working secret setup techniques as I also want to tinker, tune and learn myself but it always helps with a foot in the right direction. Currently have mine like the door panel sticker advises from scion 32 front 30 back (stickier back) does same apply in this case? My guess is becuase the back is lighter..

One-Nut_McGee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gripking

its great to be able to share, get feed back and ask questions. Not only Nut Mcgee but everyone else that has posted in this great thread in the making. Almost a guide to how to fine tune you TC into the track scene the right way. If anyone has questions or comments please feel free to add. Im sure ive asked alot of questions people either are affraid to ask or just have been curious about. Im sure theres someone out there reading this thread with questions! Ask away! the more the better! once again a BIG thank you!

Yea man, I’m glad to be able to share what I’ve learned with the tC family. It’s good to know there are people who are interested enough to take suspension and braking seriously.

Ask away, I’ll keep responding until I run out of time or knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gripking

MCgee about your tire sizes you went with a thicker profile on the front than the back or i may have it backwards.. lol . I imagine this is for traction? why not all the same size?

The main reason why the sidewall sizes are different is to maintain the effective size of the wheel/tires. Basically, sidewalls are a ratio of the height and width of the tire. With the wider front tires, the sidewalls needed to be slightly larger to keep the ratios accurate, with the smaller width rear tires I was able to run a slightly smaller sidewall while still maintaining the correct profile.

There are pros and cons to running different sized sidewalls, but that would lead me down to a 45 page long dissertation about tire deflection and the math involved with calculating that compared to your suspension setup. You certainly don’t need that to understand sidewall sizing; there are plenty of resources out there for tire sizing that would be very easy to understand. I can recommend a few books if you’re really interested in learning more about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gripking

also what tire psi do you use for track days? Would the track layout change the tire pressure you use? ( i ask becuase im a huge f1 fan and i notice how they always talk about tire pressures) i imagine same applies for auto x. Im not tryin to ask you to throw out all your hard working secret setup techniques as I also want to tinker, tune and learn myself but it always helps with a foot in the right direction. Currently have mine like the door panel sticker advises from scion 32 front 30 back (stickier back) does same apply in this case? My guess is becuase the back is lighter..

No secrets here man, there’s no point in learning stuff if you can’t share the knowledge. I’m not in any top level race team and I'm certainly not competing for any prize money so I don’t mind sharing what I’ve learned. People took the time somewhere sometime to teach me things, it’s just right that I do the same here/now.

Having said that, I will warn you that not all of my settings will work for you. I run a pretty unique setup and there is a lot of variation in a single psi across different tires and brands so what works for me at my track may not work for you at yours. Plus there are lots of things to think about with tire pressure, heat, humidity, what type of gas you run in the tires (standard air, nitrogen, etc). Considering you live in Florida with high heat and high humidity, the pressure ratings will affect you differently than they do for me in medium heat and low humidity.

Typically cars are set up from factories with a very conservative and very understeer friendly setup. Understeer is very logical to drive with if you’re the average driver with only a basic driver’s license. If you car isn’t turning enough, slow down until it does. Pretty simple, but not really the best way to drive on a track. Your stock pressure ratings are suggesting that you have more pressure in the fronts, and less in the backs. This will lead the rear tire to have more traction than the fronts which will make it harder to rotate the car (aka. Understeer). A close-to-neutral tire setup for a FWD car can be built with equal front/back tire pressures, let’s say 32/32 for example. Try running that for a little while and see how it changes the handling of the car (you won’t notice a change on the street, but you’ll be able to rotate the back end a little better at auto-x). Once you’ve understood how more pressure in the rear changes the handling, you can start playing with the balance of pressure front to back.

For example, I typically run 35/38 front/rear pressure. This took me about 4 or 5 different testing sessions to figure out where the balance of pressure worked for me at my track. Keep in mind this pressure rating is for my wheels/tires which are probably wider than yours…so take what I say as just a snapshot of my setup. Basically I would raise and lower the rear tire pressure until I found something that would allow me to rotate the back without having the back end be too loose. My guess is that you can probably run your tires at 32/32 or 32/33 front/rear ans be perfectly fine for your setup.

sw09

suspension setup wise i have
-Tein ss-p 1.5' drop front + rear
-Hotchkis front + rear swaybars both tightest setting
-Hotchkis front strut bar
-Dezod endlinks

its fun autoXing with it but it gets really annoying DDing it on NYC streets, oh yea and thats the setup ive been running since putting it on, didnt really bother trying to tweak around