CleanS14

So you're saying you designed this kit? Or had some input in the design? Are you going to tell people that you're designing Work wheels too because you're a dealer?

I talked to KC at Endless and he says you're full of $H!T

Endless4LIFE

Endless USA and AutoRnD are directly affiliated. We are not a dealer. We represent a HUGE part of Endless in the USA. Thanks for expressing your comments. I will contact Kent and ask him why he considers that to be full of ____.

Endless does not produce a larger rotor or brake kit for the tC period. This is an explanation as to how this can be beneficial.

Think what you want, physics don't lie.

Rishie

Endless4LIFE

I just spoke with Kent and he has no clue who you are and that you're in fact full of it. Tell me your name so maybe it can be cleared up.

Maybe Taek can chime in and express the differences he has felt over the stock system.

From a technical standpoint here is some data:

1. Zeal Rotors have an increased lead content to prevent premature warping on the track due to constant hi and lo temperature changes.

2. Endless Caliper, 4 piston, larger footprint on rotor as well as evenly displaced.

3. This brake kit will far out stop the vehicle over stock anyday of the week. Hands down. That should have been obvious.

4. Forged caliper construction increasing the stiffness of the caliper will also result in better pedal feel and durability on the track. Incredibly lightweight calipers for reduced unsprung weight.

5. Now for "foot dyno" info:

Pedal feel, vastly improved
Intital Response, vastly improved
Fade Resistance, incredibly improved

The brakes are not for the faint hearted. If you feel bigger is better than this would not be the brake system for you. The advantage to this system is to acheive the braking power of a larger rotor diamter without having a larger rotor diameter. That will have to be tested on the track but I guarantee that the power loss from a larger rotor diamter would negate any of your late braking skillz.....

CleanS14

Name's Jay... I'm no kid dreamer or person looking to pick a fight... just like to call it how I see it. It would've been cool to know you had actually helped design the kit, but if it's not true that's kinda sad.

I do know Kent but maybe I should just have said that I IM'd him the link and asked if you guys really had anything to do with the design of the kit and he said:

Me: Is Rishie for real... did he really have anything to do with the design of the kit?
KC: uhhh... no
KC: LOL

So I stand corrected... he didn't say you were "full of poop"... he responded "uhhh... no" to my question on whether or not you had any involvment in the development of this brake kit.

Endless4LIFE

It was because of me tho that Endless did push to find a brake kit to work for the tC. So in that sense yes it is 100% attributed to me personally. Same with how i've setup with Taek to assist us in producing a coilover kit for the tC as well.

Regardless i'm glad the air is cleared. I did not mean to imply that I am an engineer for Endless, however we do offer a lot of engineering data and information on systems as well as changes that need to be made for the US market.

Rishie

taek

the difference from stock to the new kit is immense

Honestly, even thouhg its the same size as stock rotors difference is a lot.

When i first got it i asked rishie the same quesiton, why is the new kit's rotor same as the stock size.

He only said one thing. Just try it out first


Dude, from tapping it and hard breaking it, the difference is alot. I drove WeDriveScion's tC (when he was at my house) i didnt feel safe in his tC when braking.


Rishie didnt design the system, he just represents Endless with Auto RnD

mattssi

I just got a quote and this system is close to twice the price as the stoptech BBK. I just don't see the advantage

heyitznosaj

damn taek... your ride gets better with every thread you make. Those must cost a pretty penny though. How much are those going to run for?

taek

stoptech and endless is different

mattssi

I know they are different. but why pay that huge price difference for endless - what's are the advantages?

heyitznosaj

This is just a hunch but I think the endless brake kit will be more balanced than the stoptech. Its not all about the most stopping power its about the balance of the vehicle and thats why endless used a smaller rotor. The stoptech system seems like its just for brute stopping power and will disrupt the balance of the vehicle that is utilizing it. This is just my theory so someone please correct me if I am wrong.

taek

you get endless to stand out

taek

come to think of it yur right

screw how it looks.. its all bot how it feels

The_Instigator

By no means is this an attack, but I do have some questions and concerns about the technical data you have offered. I installed the kit on Taek's car in my garage so I feel I can comment on the kit with first hand knowledge.

You mention added lead to prevent warping due to temperature changes when in fact the majority or "warped rotor" diagnosises are related to pad deposition due to improper pad selection when maximum operating temperatures of the pads are exceeded. More info here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

Also, lead is a very heavy metal and would increase the weight of the rotor by a significant amount which in direct contradiction with the statement about big brake kit rotors adding weight and reducing horsepower.

and

True but not to the extent you are inferring. Our big brake kit offers a 2 peice 328x28mm rotor with a lightweight aluminum hat (stock size is 275x25mm)which is actually lighter than the stock rotor. The increased rotational inertia will affect horspower but not by any significant amount.

On a track, improved braking performance is significantly more important the 3-5 hp. By out braking an opponent in an idnetical car with only the brakes modified by 20 feet per corner on a 10 turn track in a 20 lap race, you will have gained 4000 feet by the end of the race. Nearly a mile lead over another car with the same horsepower. There is no way those numbers can be gained with a 3-5 or even a 10 hp advantage.

Reduced pad taper is a plus with differential piston bores, but a larger footprint on a rotor really offers nothing for performance. A larger pad of the same compound offers no performance difference...only increased heat capacity due to the larger mass offered.

This is quite a claim and I wonder if you have any numbers to back up the statement. Many manufacturers make similar claims but can rarely back them up with real data. In the majority of performance tests that we have been a part of, our competitors end up stopping worse than stock much like in the RSX Cahllenge where we were the only car to stop better than a stock equipped vehicle: http://www.stoptech.com/company_info...hallenge.shtml


I agree that a fixed caliper will be much stiffer than a floating caliper like that in a stock setup, but do have numbers to compare the weight of your calipers agianst the stock components?


Again big claims without numbers to back them up. After the system was installed I did not notice a significant difference in the pedal feel and in truth a difference should not have been felt. Since you are not increasing the size of the rotors the overall piston area should be the same or slightly different as the factory brake balance is near perfect. The only reason a difference would be felt would be if you are increasing overall piston area which would actually make the pedal feel softer as more fluid needs to be moved to actuate the pistons. This would also increase the front bias on the car which is proven to increase stopping distances over stock as the rear brakes are underutilized. Larger pistons will also create an overamplified or microswitch effect on the brakes where the pedal throw is increased and the brakes come on very aggressively instead of a stiffer pedal which offers better modulation and control

To improve pedal feel a smaller overall piston area would be required which would induce more rear bias. Most cars can benefit with some added rear bias but not by much. Too much rear bias can lead to snap oversteer which is very dangerous as the car is prone to spin out under braking.

The only way to improve pedal feel is by going to smaller pistons which cannot be done safely without moving the caliper further out on the rotor where it has more leverage.

If the car "feels" like it is stopping better because the nose dives and it throws you forward in your seat, than it is telltale signs of an overbiased front end and in the majority of cases will actually take more distance to stop than a stock car will. A properly balanced system will not be as dramatic under braking because the front and rear are working together at their maximum safe level and the car does not exhibit the extreme weight transfer.

The major benefit of a big brake kit is the increased heat capacity due to the larger rotor mass over a stock rotor. Other benefits such as improved internal vein design will also have a dramtaic effect on a rotors ability to improve heat capacity. The rotors included in your kit do not offer the increased heat capacity or better vein design. A larger rotor is not and should not be used to increase braking power. It is there to increase heat capacity first and foremost. Any benefit such as improved pedal feel and better response due the requirement of less fluid to be moved is secondary but a definite plus.

I would love to see some numbers to back up the claims you have made because after seeing what the kit has to offer I cant beleive all of them. If the kit has the same torque output as a stock caliper then it will definitely improve performance due to the improved friction of the upgraded brake pads and stiffer calipers but it will not be that much more than a pad upgrade with stock calipers.

I am happy to further go into any of the claims I have made if you feel they are incorrect or lack scientific credibility and i am happy to discuss any reasons you feel the claims you have made are truthful, especially if you can offer some data to better objectify the benefits of the kit.

The_Instigator

Stoptech's primary philosophy is balanced brake upgrades and is why we regularly win magizine performance tests. We will be the first to tell you that with our kits the calipers are actually doing less work than the stock calipers in order to maintain proper balance with stock systems. It is not a brute force approach by any means and is fact quite the opposite.

Look at the tagline right on our website..."Balanced Brake Upgrades" is our trademark.

www.stoptech.com

We customize our brake kits to each individual application with repeatable tests to ensure that every kit will match or better stock performance. For more information on the extensive tests we do to ensure the optimal balance see here: http://www.zeckhausen.com/testing_brakes.htm

taek

hey you told me you like the brakes and how it felt

mMm

The_Instigator

I never said I didnt like it, but you even said at first that you couldnt really tell a difference. I never drove the car, but from what I felt it was not like my car at all. Id be happy to let you drive my car to get your input on the difference.

taek

at first i couldnt tell the difference cuz your neighborhood was smmall to go around...but now the difference is alot

it was breaking in too

retrodrive

I must say that no matter what any manufacturer is saying about a product they are asociated with, I would not trust any of it. It is not true if it can't be proven in a reliable, consistent test. Unique? Most definetely. Better? I need a proof.

sensay

brake tests FROM BOTH including wilwood are in order to help people choose the best. Identical everything cept the brakes, wheels and tires should be the same or similar