The purpose of this thread is to provide an honest discussion about maximizing handling... as in... the search for the "perfect setup." Many of us aren't the type of guys who want to see pics of dropped cars.


I know the "perfect setup" is going to vary person-to-person, but there must be some consensus about which sways/drops/spring rates are best for minimizing understeer and maximizing speed throughout a turn.

I have heard that a drop more than 1.5" tends to throw off the suspension geometry. I'd believe it, due to the MacPherson setup, which I believe tends to add positive camber under load (verify ?). Of course this could be corrected with negative camber, but does there come a point where the amount of negative camber necessary makes it close to un-driveable on the street?

In addition... I'm guessing the TRD sways, while they do make a difference, aren't truly stiff enough for heavy autocross competition. With that being said, has someone ever considered their rear end too stiff? What is a good ratio of front/back stiffness?

I know the front needs to be less stiff than the rear to increase grip, but i couldn't imagine adding rear sways/braces etc. without touching the front. Seems like it'd throw things off a bit.

Anyway, this'll get it started. Ideas? I wouldn't mind giving the local 89 civics some STS competition, but that'll be very difficult.

 

The front to rear stiffness ratio determines the understeer/oversteer relationship of the car. I am running a TRD rear, which under heavy autocross would probably fall a little short, but under other types of driving does a great job. From the feel of the car, I think that if you went too much stiffer without adding a stiffer front sway, you would have an oversteering monster. This is why manufacturers like Hotchkis only make a front/rear set (as far as I know anyway). The super stiff rear would cause too much oversteer without stiffening the front.

 

yup! If youre the type of person that enjoys oversteer during turn in, then having a thicker rear sway will be the answer.
Adding front and rear sway bars as you know would still depend on you. I knew a person that added a thinner front sway bar and a thicker rear sway bar.
Maybe big name companies such as Hotchkis has spend some track time in developing these sway bars to get optimum balance.

 

So the consensus is... pre-developed hotchkis system or such.

And as far as springs--
I realize the TRD or H-techs are probably the better springs (+TRD shocks) to choose for autocross duty, short of adjusting coilovers to taste. Right?

Camber + Camber plates
Anyone fool with the camber on these cars?

Toe
I was told that the tC has factory-adjustable toe. Am I incorrect?

Anyone get good front/rear toe settings? I'd rather not fool too much with it (gets twitchy fast), but if there's a "golden toe," then i'd like to know... .. rhyme.

 

Other than the normal spec alignment after the springs on mine I havent touched the alignment.

I will say from my experience that the TRD springs and TRD rear sway work to do a great job of improving handling without comprimising ride too much. If I was seriously autoxing it, I would probably get a little more aggressive, but for my driving it is a great setup. The TRD rear sway does a good job of getting it away from "push" while not completely killing you on the bumps.

One other point to remember is that if you want handling on a track, a much stiffer sway may be great. However, if you are worried about being able to handle on rough city streets, too stiff of a sway may hurt you since you wont keep the tires planted as well with less suspension independence.

I have not messed with the camber either.

 

One important thing to note is that cars with a tendancy to lift-throttle oversteer (ie rigid FWD cars) are less forgiving in those "OH ****" moments that more often occur during daily driving than they do at the track. On the track, your mind is keyed to the feel of the car and keyed to making the movements as fluid and graceful as possible. In the Real World you're more likely to stab at the brakes or upset the balance of the car during evasive maneuvers 'cause the soccer mom in the SUV in front of you just accidentally stepped on her e-brake while she was turning around to yell at her kids.

Part of this message is just a reminder than what works on the track might seriously compromise day-to-day safety. The other reason is just to make sure I'm subscribed to the thread. :D

 

Is there a point where having too stiff of a rear sway bar (and no front bar) could hurt the suspension, or will it only cause the annoying over/understeer issue as previously mentioned?

 

This is my setup:

Tein ss w/ pillow ball mounts
Tein EDFC
Hotchkis sway bars
DC Strut bar
Ingalls rear strut bar
Ingalls engine torque mount
Hotchkis rear adjustable control arms
Stoptech front bbk w/ axis ultimate pads
Powerslot rear big rotor upgrade
Stoptech rear stainless lines w/ axis ultimate pads
5 zigen pro racer 17X8.5 +48
245/40-17 Kumho MX tires

 

^^ on the track, I think turn-in would be annoying w/ tons of oversteer..... not to mention possible unpredictable oversteer when braking or lifting throttle mid-corner..... balance is key!

 

*delete*


Sorry

 

Scion put a smaller rear sway on the 5-speed because of mid-turn throttle-lift oversteer.
The Auto gets a bar that's .050" thicker in diameter.

That said, I've taken a 90 degree turn at 50 mph with a TRD rear sway set at race in an auto with 18" P-Zeros. (This was in a friend's RS2.0 He was in the passenger seat holding his breath. )
The car stayed perfectly flat. I had a split second thought of lifting just before the sharp curve but realized that would upset the F/R balance and allow the rear to slide. Staying in the gas kept the rear planted.

My next mods will be rear strut tower brace or Ingalls rear bracket and rear sway. I believe the front strut bar is over-rated. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

ABOVE ALL ELSE...this car requires good rubber to take advantage of suspension upgrades. Without good tires, all the suspension mods do no good if you can't stay stuck to the pavement.

 

Nice car and setup, but I ask that future posters in this thread refrain from posting pics.

I just don't want this to turn into a picture thread. There are tons of those.

Did RAAMaudio ever respond about how far of a drop is optimal? His suspension threads are about 6 months old, and he never responded to optimal drop.

Many of us are trying to do this on a budget. So far, i'm thinking TRD springs/shocks, hotchkis sways (front soft, rear medium), something to adjust camber to about -1.75F / -0.5R, and examine toe settings for perhaps .5 or 1 degree F toe out for a little more steering response.

Then I'd start considering strut bars. I'm looking for overall balance, leaning towards performance without sacrificing too much comfort. I do live in the state with the WORST roads in the nation.

 

You don't wanna hear what I have to say about you attempting -1.75 degrees of front camber...much less a change in toe of more than .2 degrees off stock... (especially if you are adjusting out/negative...)
I'd only attempt such angles if I were to be seriously autoXing the car...and only then if I had a sponsor supplying tires... You crazy...


something smells fishy here...

 

If that's the case, then I wont worry about it.

I've never adjusted the camber on a tC. Based on your reaction, then i won't worry about it. I hear of people having success with camber and toe changes, so why wouldn't it work on our cars?

In addition, if you read RAAMaudio's posts, he talks about -1.5 being the optimum camber for a street-driven, occaisionally autoX'd vehicle.

I'm sure your insight would make a welcome addition to this thread.

BTW. What smells fishy? Questioning something?

 

It just sounded like your trying to brag about how far you were going to push the envelope...
-.5 is plenty for the front
-1.0 is plenty for the rear
extra toe (in/positive) is recommended to keep tires from pulling out/back at speed. No need for negative toe.

 

My reasoning for increasing the front camber beyond that has to do with the + camber under load inherant in a macpherson setup.

What's the stock camber? Isn't that on the order of -0.5 ? Why would you want more camber at the rear, when it's the front tires that are going to experience more suspension travel, and therefore, more + camber change?

The reason for toe-out in the rear is to encourage a little oversteer to compensate for the understeer in a hard turn. I realize things get twitchy very fast, but any degree of toe-in is going to reduce the car's rear-end rotation.

I'd think to just leave it at dead-ahead if not slight toe-out in the rear.


I'm not trying to push envelopes... I have to drive this at interstate speeds every day... but if the car can handle the adjusted changes and I get no wiser reason not to, i'll make the said adjustments.

 

I got some #'s from Oct.... he's got the exact setup i'm looking to purchase.

Not much toe, and not too much camber... but it's obvious he's planned it out thoughtfully with some trial/error... so I'll just start with his numbers and go from there.

Thanks!

 

Macpherson strut type suspension geometry can be awful. We'd run 3-4 degrees negative in the front of our Nissan racer, and 1.5 in the rear.

Yes, when you load the suspension the outside tire will often times go over into the bad part of the camber curve. This minimizes contact patch, and consequently, grip.

Toe will eat tires faster than camber, though camber will still contribute. A degree and a half of negative camber with zero toe is still very streetable and tire wear will be acceptable.

For the racetrack we run 1/8 inch of toe out in the front for quicker turn-in. The rear is set at zero. If you're curious about front caster, 4 degrees positive about calls it a day.

That help you? =)

 

interesting

 

I am running:

-TRD Springs
-Hotchkis Strut Tower Brace
-Hotchkis Sways on Race setting for both sway (70% stiffer in front and 340% stiffer in back)
-Dezod Endlinks (Front and Rear)
-Ingalls Rear Brace
-Stockies with Falken Azenis 615s 225/45/r17

and i want to add TRD struts and shocks and Hotchkis Camber links

But anyway I think this is a cheaper alternative to coilovers to get a REALLY good balanced suspension setup. I am serious though this setup is AMAZING. I have a pioneer D3 and i am not sure how accurate it is, but the gyrometer on there has registered over 1 lateral G before lol.I have like NO body roll btw

O and btw i have messed with everysetting for my sway bars. The two best combinations I have found, is either both the front and rear on the softest or both on stiffest. They seemed the most balanced. It doesnt really seem to understeer. And if I let off in a corner, the back end doesnt really want to come around. When i was first running just my rear hotchkis sway, it would tend to drift badly when i let off on corners. And i tried running the rear sway at stiffest and front at softest. It was oversteering driving around town fairly normally lol. I mean if i drove REMOTELY aggresively the back end felt REALLY weird. It felt like the rear tires were on ice or something lol.

I dont claim to be an expert. But other cars i drive with include 240sx(s) one with coilovers and i have also been following a 90s M5 as well as an old porsche 911. And I was all over the M5's ___ on backroads and kept up with the 911 and the 240s.
Take it for what you will.