Sway bars and Strut bars
05-01-2010, 11:26 PM
#22
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Scikotics
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 9,731
Your sway did not cause that. The sway in no way changes your alignment. It basically floats freely when the car is at rest. Toe and camber are held by their adjusters.
Ride height changes affect camber and toe. Camber changes alone induce toe changes. The sway does neither. So no, you dont need an alignment after installing a sway. You always should get one after changing ride height or changing struts.
With a TRD bar, progress bar or even the DG bar on its softest setting, you dont need to worry about running a stiffer front bar. With the DG bar on its middle setting, you should know what you are doing (preferably have autox'd, tracked it, or spent time really pushing the car past its limits to know when it is going to break the rear end loose on you). Dont run the DG bar on its stiffest setting on the street. There is no need and unless you know what you are doing (and by that, I mean what I said above.. not just "I push the corners on the street when I can") you will end up making a sudden maneuver one day and ending up facing the wrong way. Honestly, I only got the DG bar because I autox the car and want more rotation than the TRD would give. If not, I probably would have just stayed with the TRD bar on its stiff setting (or even the standard progress bar). People should realize that "Race proven" means just that: it is a good setup on a racetrack for someone that knows how to really handle the car. A good race setup is typically not the best street setup. So you have to look at what you are really changing and what you are doing with the car.
The hotchkis bars softest setting should be stiffer than the DG bars soft setting, and for this reason, they only sell them with a front bar. Really, running a stiffer front bar on a FWD is not the best setup. Corner exit traction suffers greatly, especially with an open diff. I had a brand new hotchkis setup I bought from someone, but when the DG bar came out I bought it. After 3 years autoxing, I wanted more roll stiffness, but did NOT want a stiffer front bar. I deal with corner exit traction too much as it is.
Just keep in mind that a really stiff rear bar means the car is MUCH more prone to oversteer. This is compounded when you make the typical mistake of turning or throttle lifting while trying to turn. So you should be aware of that before doing it.
Ride height changes affect camber and toe. Camber changes alone induce toe changes. The sway does neither. So no, you dont need an alignment after installing a sway. You always should get one after changing ride height or changing struts.
With a TRD bar, progress bar or even the DG bar on its softest setting, you dont need to worry about running a stiffer front bar. With the DG bar on its middle setting, you should know what you are doing (preferably have autox'd, tracked it, or spent time really pushing the car past its limits to know when it is going to break the rear end loose on you). Dont run the DG bar on its stiffest setting on the street. There is no need and unless you know what you are doing (and by that, I mean what I said above.. not just "I push the corners on the street when I can") you will end up making a sudden maneuver one day and ending up facing the wrong way. Honestly, I only got the DG bar because I autox the car and want more rotation than the TRD would give. If not, I probably would have just stayed with the TRD bar on its stiff setting (or even the standard progress bar). People should realize that "Race proven" means just that: it is a good setup on a racetrack for someone that knows how to really handle the car. A good race setup is typically not the best street setup. So you have to look at what you are really changing and what you are doing with the car.
The hotchkis bars softest setting should be stiffer than the DG bars soft setting, and for this reason, they only sell them with a front bar. Really, running a stiffer front bar on a FWD is not the best setup. Corner exit traction suffers greatly, especially with an open diff. I had a brand new hotchkis setup I bought from someone, but when the DG bar came out I bought it. After 3 years autoxing, I wanted more roll stiffness, but did NOT want a stiffer front bar. I deal with corner exit traction too much as it is.
Just keep in mind that a really stiff rear bar means the car is MUCH more prone to oversteer. This is compounded when you make the typical mistake of turning or throttle lifting while trying to turn. So you should be aware of that before doing it.
05-11-2010, 02:59 AM
#26
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14
Y
The hotchkis bars softest setting should be stiffer than the DG bars soft setting, and for this reason, they only sell them with a front bar. Really, running a stiffer front bar on a FWD is not the best setup. Corner exit traction suffers greatly, especially with an open diff. I had a brand new hotchkis setup I bought from someone, but when the DG bar came out I bought it. After 3 years autoxing, I wanted more roll stiffness, but did NOT want a stiffer front bar. I deal with corner exit traction too much as it is.
The hotchkis bars softest setting should be stiffer than the DG bars soft setting, and for this reason, they only sell them with a front bar. Really, running a stiffer front bar on a FWD is not the best setup. Corner exit traction suffers greatly, especially with an open diff. I had a brand new hotchkis setup I bought from someone, but when the DG bar came out I bought it. After 3 years autoxing, I wanted more roll stiffness, but did NOT want a stiffer front bar. I deal with corner exit traction too much as it is.
05-11-2010, 03:44 AM
#27
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SL Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 129
i have the dg bar as well. honestly I doubt you will need to upgrade the front bar. If you want the car to handle a lot better get the rear sway. i like the Dg one i have, if not i would suggest the progress one. I use my car as a daily driver and a auto x car and it is a great improvement over stock. The Hotchkis is a great set. I was looking at it before i decided to go with the dg sway. The reasons i choose against it were.
1. From my understanding to change the front sway in the tc is a extreme pain.
2. a stiffer front bar will promote under-steer unless you upgrade the rear bar to be stiffer as well( correct me if i am wrong people)
3. To me my stock tc rear end felt sloppy and that is where i wanted to concentrate my efforts on.
For these reasons i went with the Rear bar and about to add the ingalls rear bar to tighten it up a bit more. I guess to conclude all my rambling if you go with a dg bar you i don't see why you would have to upgrade the front. It is a great combination for dan since he uses a stock tc front bar in his race tc as well as others like myself.
Ps. If you get it, the dg sway, I would highly suggest not to run it on the stiffest settings on the street
1. From my understanding to change the front sway in the tc is a extreme pain.
2. a stiffer front bar will promote under-steer unless you upgrade the rear bar to be stiffer as well( correct me if i am wrong people)
3. To me my stock tc rear end felt sloppy and that is where i wanted to concentrate my efforts on.
For these reasons i went with the Rear bar and about to add the ingalls rear bar to tighten it up a bit more. I guess to conclude all my rambling if you go with a dg bar you i don't see why you would have to upgrade the front. It is a great combination for dan since he uses a stock tc front bar in his race tc as well as others like myself.
Ps. If you get it, the dg sway, I would highly suggest not to run it on the stiffest settings on the street
05-11-2010, 04:51 AM
#28
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14
Well, I definitely plan on getting the rear sway as I hear it's a great mod, but I wouldn't mind getting a front one too if it does anything beneficial. The ease of installation isn't a problem, and nor is the price.
I was reading up on comparisons between the DG and a normal Progress, and people were giving the DG props for being 25mm, 3mm thicker than the Progress. The Hotchkis ones are 27mm, so shouldn't that be even better? I also plan on picking up an Ingals 4-point, but I don't want the back to be too stiff with nothing in the front, or is that not a problem?
I was reading up on comparisons between the DG and a normal Progress, and people were giving the DG props for being 25mm, 3mm thicker than the Progress. The Hotchkis ones are 27mm, so shouldn't that be even better? I also plan on picking up an Ingals 4-point, but I don't want the back to be too stiff with nothing in the front, or is that not a problem?
05-11-2010, 06:29 AM
#29
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SL Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 58
From what I know, the DG sway bar is a solid bar whereas the Hotchkis bars are hollow. Here's Paul's input about the difference between the two sways in the DG sway bar thread...
05-11-2010, 11:01 AM
#30
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Silver Spring, MD
Posts: 193
For Berzerked. I know some people who got hotchkis set and they want to switch to DG sway. so get whatever you like. It only 3 or less DG sway left. by the time you decided, it might have sold out.
Last edited by SR0529; 05-11-2010 at 11:07 AM.
05-11-2010, 03:03 PM
#31
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 14
I might as well grab it while I have the chance, although i doubt they will never be manufactured again, it just doesn't make sense to make only 50.
Do you know if it is manufactured under the brand name Dezod or Progress? While this doesn't matter at all, I'm a little bit picky about brand names.
Do you know if it is manufactured under the brand name Dezod or Progress? While this doesn't matter at all, I'm a little bit picky about brand names.
05-11-2010, 03:22 PM
#32
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SL Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 129
It is manufactured by progress but only sold through dezod.
here is a link for ya.
http://www.dezod.com/pd-dang25bardeposit.cfm
here is a link for ya.
http://www.dezod.com/pd-dang25bardeposit.cfm
05-11-2010, 07:50 PM
#33
Senior Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 9,731
There are only a couple left as far as I know.
People are still confused though on why you run front/rear, etc.
1) One purpose of he sway is to reduce body roll
2) The handling balance comes from the ratio of front to rear stiffness. IF that ratio is pushed more towards rear stiffness, the car will oversteer more and vice versa. IF both bars are increased together the same amount, handling balance will remain about the same, only body roll will be reduced.
Also, people need to realize what is good on the track != what is best on the street! Running too much rear bar makes the car MUCH more prone to snap oversteer, which is not good on the street and downright horrible for that majority of drivers who are not ready for it. Even those that say they "push it hard" on the street likely have no idea really what is going on until you have competed with the car and really know how it handles.
Hotchkis knows that with the settings on their rear bar, that most people would end up backwards in a ditch unless they increased front stiffness to keep the handling balance more neutral, thus they sell theirs in pairs. But, a stiff front bar causes issues with turn in and big issues with corner exit traction. That is exactly why I finally decided against going stiffer in front. After a few seasons of autox, I found that corner exit traction was a big enough issue that I didnt want to worsen it. It is better to leave the front a bit softer and run more rear bar on this car. Added roll resistance can be had if you want to run really stiff springs, which many of us do. You do sacrifice ride comfort obviously that way.
People are still confused though on why you run front/rear, etc.
1) One purpose of he sway is to reduce body roll
2) The handling balance comes from the ratio of front to rear stiffness. IF that ratio is pushed more towards rear stiffness, the car will oversteer more and vice versa. IF both bars are increased together the same amount, handling balance will remain about the same, only body roll will be reduced.
Also, people need to realize what is good on the track != what is best on the street! Running too much rear bar makes the car MUCH more prone to snap oversteer, which is not good on the street and downright horrible for that majority of drivers who are not ready for it. Even those that say they "push it hard" on the street likely have no idea really what is going on until you have competed with the car and really know how it handles.
Hotchkis knows that with the settings on their rear bar, that most people would end up backwards in a ditch unless they increased front stiffness to keep the handling balance more neutral, thus they sell theirs in pairs. But, a stiff front bar causes issues with turn in and big issues with corner exit traction. That is exactly why I finally decided against going stiffer in front. After a few seasons of autox, I found that corner exit traction was a big enough issue that I didnt want to worsen it. It is better to leave the front a bit softer and run more rear bar on this car. Added roll resistance can be had if you want to run really stiff springs, which many of us do. You do sacrifice ride comfort obviously that way.
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