2012 Scion tC with 2 Reverse Lights
08-02-2011, 01:13 AM
#21
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Sad to hear that ninerbud. Even though Scion was unable to append your complaint to the case I opened, you have one as well. If this continues, and other people create complaint cases, perhaps they will take notice.
...and don't bother feeding the trolls. Think of what we are doing as much the same as iPhone 4 owners asking for a fix to the poorly designed antenna you could short out with your hand.
...and don't bother feeding the trolls. Think of what we are doing as much the same as iPhone 4 owners asking for a fix to the poorly designed antenna you could short out with your hand.
08-02-2011, 01:50 AM
#23
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Similar thing happened with the premium alpine deck unit..... bass playing out of 1 side in TC mode. The words from the dealer are "That's the way it's meant to be played" ... well we of the 2011 scion community fixed that with enough complaints.
They most certainly can do the same with this reverse light.
They most certainly can do the same with this reverse light.
08-02-2011, 02:05 AM
#25
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To answer your question, yes there are cars sold in the US with only one reverse light. volkswagon does it. but the problem as i mentioned above is that volkswagon literally is a european-based car company and have consistently kept their cars with 1 or 2 reverse light, not switch it up after realizing they made a mistake like toyota has.
i'm not speaking for everyone here, but to sound a bit over dramatic, i'm mad that i bought a test car and not a production ready car like the 2012 will be.
08-02-2011, 02:27 AM
#26
I'm not justifying what Toyota did or downplaying your input, simply trying to provide some perspective.
This is the way of the future. Current development practices are moving more and more toward the 80% solution. I can't speak to industry, but the military takes what it feels are best practices from industry and uses them and this is what it's going toward. Without going into all the boring details of Key Performance Parameters, Developmental & Operational Testing, Low-Rate Initial Production, etc, etc, a product is Full-Rate Production ready when it's been proven to the 80% mark.
The idea is twofold. First, even at 80%, this new item is better than what they had before. And second, it is more cost effective to deal with (fix, upgrade, ignore, whatever) the problems from the first production batch than to do more testing before production and potentially still miss the glitch. You get real-world testing and feedback and can make adjustments for the second batch.
Handled properly ("We didn't realize this would be such a problem. We're sorry for the inconvenience and here's a fix."), it will actually boost your image and provide a better overall product in the long-term. Handled poorly, you get angry customers who feel you didn't do your job.
This is the way of the future. Current development practices are moving more and more toward the 80% solution. I can't speak to industry, but the military takes what it feels are best practices from industry and uses them and this is what it's going toward. Without going into all the boring details of Key Performance Parameters, Developmental & Operational Testing, Low-Rate Initial Production, etc, etc, a product is Full-Rate Production ready when it's been proven to the 80% mark.
The idea is twofold. First, even at 80%, this new item is better than what they had before. And second, it is more cost effective to deal with (fix, upgrade, ignore, whatever) the problems from the first production batch than to do more testing before production and potentially still miss the glitch. You get real-world testing and feedback and can make adjustments for the second batch.
Handled properly ("We didn't realize this would be such a problem. We're sorry for the inconvenience and here's a fix."), it will actually boost your image and provide a better overall product in the long-term. Handled poorly, you get angry customers who feel you didn't do your job.
08-02-2011, 02:33 AM
#27
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^ You must be a maintainer! 
I had a very similar experience. I bought the car and when I went to back it in the garage that night, my niece pointed out I had a light out already. The next day I took it in and the dealer spent nearly an hour trying to figure out why my car was missing the right reverse light. It was a "design feature" even the dealer didn't know about and wasn't advertised in any of the literature. I would have been far less annoyed (and probably would have still bought the car) if someone had simply told me about the 1 light before I bought the car.
That is all. Oh and...
GINGER POWER!!!
I had a very similar experience. I bought the car and when I went to back it in the garage that night, my niece pointed out I had a light out already. The next day I took it in and the dealer spent nearly an hour trying to figure out why my car was missing the right reverse light. It was a "design feature" even the dealer didn't know about and wasn't advertised in any of the literature. I would have been far less annoyed (and probably would have still bought the car) if someone had simply told me about the 1 light before I bought the car.
That is all.
Oh and...GINGER POWER!!!
"It was a "design feature" even the dealer didn't know about and wasn't advertised in any of the literature."
To take this to its extreme conclusion, Toyota deliberately and fraudulently omitted information of a design flaw they hoped no one would find out. When confronted with this problem, they fixed it in future releases, but leaving the original batch with no recourse.
Another point i wanna address is how toyota was using european design as an excuse for the 1 light. Why would a Japanese company adopt a European design for an American market? Horrible.
EDIT: gosh the more i try to write about this the more irrational i'm being. i already had to delete a post over this. i'm ganna gather my thoughts and be more thorough in my next post. there will be more posts.
Last edited by XerotC; 08-02-2011 at 02:44 AM.
08-02-2011, 03:43 AM
#28
Sad to hear that ninerbud. Even though Scion was unable to append your complaint to the case I opened, you have one as well. If this continues, and other people create complaint cases, perhaps they will take notice.
...and don't bother feeding the trolls. Think of what we are doing as much the same as iPhone 4 owners asking for a fix to the poorly designed antenna you could short out with your hand.
...and don't bother feeding the trolls. Think of what we are doing as much the same as iPhone 4 owners asking for a fix to the poorly designed antenna you could short out with your hand.
You don't have to be mean, but do be direct with what you want the company to do to make your experience better. I will be talking to our Scion Rep the next time he visits the dealership to see if I can get my complaint noticed.
08-02-2011, 03:44 AM
#29
Hi ninerbud,
It's clear Nolakpd doesn't subscribe to our preferred system of polite, respectful discourse. Arguing with him with that premise in mind probably won't get very far.
His rebuttal of course would be that you shouldn't have bought the car until you had a full quantum profile of every subatomic particle contained (or potentially contained) in/on/around the car, followed by an Impact Assessment Study of any potential context the car might find itself in. Failure to do such rigorous analysis and then purchasing the car anyway exonerates Toyota from any responsibility.
The fact of the matter is sometimes asking for a favor can get said favor accomplished. If Toyota decides to issue a recall, I'll definitely take them up on it and accept a free second/passenger-side reversing light.
It's clear Nolakpd doesn't subscribe to our preferred system of polite, respectful discourse. Arguing with him with that premise in mind probably won't get very far.
His rebuttal of course would be that you shouldn't have bought the car until you had a full quantum profile of every subatomic particle contained (or potentially contained) in/on/around the car, followed by an Impact Assessment Study of any potential context the car might find itself in. Failure to do such rigorous analysis and then purchasing the car anyway exonerates Toyota from any responsibility.
The fact of the matter is sometimes asking for a favor can get said favor accomplished. If Toyota decides to issue a recall, I'll definitely take them up on it and accept a free second/passenger-side reversing light.
Sad to hear that ninerbud. Even though Scion was unable to append your complaint to the case I opened, you have one as well. If this continues, and other people create complaint cases, perhaps they will take notice.
...and don't bother feeding the trolls. Think of what we are doing as much the same as iPhone 4 owners asking for a fix to the poorly designed antenna you could short out with your hand.
...and don't bother feeding the trolls. Think of what we are doing as much the same as iPhone 4 owners asking for a fix to the poorly designed antenna you could short out with your hand.
I'm not trolling. Just voicing from another perspective. Problem? We live in a country where there is free speech, right? Just some of you guys just decided to take it the rude way.
08-02-2011, 03:58 AM
#30
One more thing to consider. If the worst thing of this car is that it lacks a feature you had learned to live without, and while unhappy about it, you were okay with it until you found out the following year will have this feature, it's not worth losing sleep over.
Now that said, I'm all for getting on Toyota to fix the missing reverse light. We've already seen it can be done with a $30 kit, which means Toyota could do it for about 1/2 that price. Tap a wire, run a line and cut out a hole.
Here is my recommendation to Toyota (free of charge):
- Design a plastic insert that has the same connector as the reverse light connection on the driver side. The exterior of the insert should be circular.
- Have dealers cut a hole in the existing taillight housing and glue in the above plastic insert.
- Have a pigtail with the standard 7440 bulb that runs a line to the driver side and taps the reverse light wire.
We've already seen the actual modification isn't hard and would be extremely easy if one had a kit and tools designed by Toyota.
Now that said, I'm all for getting on Toyota to fix the missing reverse light. We've already seen it can be done with a $30 kit, which means Toyota could do it for about 1/2 that price. Tap a wire, run a line and cut out a hole.
Here is my recommendation to Toyota (free of charge):
- Design a plastic insert that has the same connector as the reverse light connection on the driver side. The exterior of the insert should be circular.
- Have dealers cut a hole in the existing taillight housing and glue in the above plastic insert.
- Have a pigtail with the standard 7440 bulb that runs a line to the driver side and taps the reverse light wire.
We've already seen the actual modification isn't hard and would be extremely easy if one had a kit and tools designed by Toyota.
08-02-2011, 04:00 AM
#31
One more thing to consider. If the worst thing of this car is that it lacks a feature you had learned to live without, and while unhappy about it, you were okay with it until you found out the following year will have this feature, it's not worth losing sleep over.
Now that said, I'm all for getting on Toyota to fix the missing reverse light. We've already seen it can be done with a $30 kit, which means Toyota could do it for about 1/2 that price. Tap a wire, run a line and cut out a hole.
Here is my recommendation to Toyota (free of charge):
- Design a plastic insert that has the same connector as the reverse light connection on the driver side. The exterior of the insert should be circular.
- Have dealers cut a hole in the existing taillight housing and glue in the above plastic insert.
- Have a pigtail with the standard 7440 bulb that runs a line to the driver side and taps the reverse light wire.
We've already seen the actual modification isn't hard and would be extremely easy if one had a kit and tools designed by Toyota.
Now that said, I'm all for getting on Toyota to fix the missing reverse light. We've already seen it can be done with a $30 kit, which means Toyota could do it for about 1/2 that price. Tap a wire, run a line and cut out a hole.
Here is my recommendation to Toyota (free of charge):
- Design a plastic insert that has the same connector as the reverse light connection on the driver side. The exterior of the insert should be circular.
- Have dealers cut a hole in the existing taillight housing and glue in the above plastic insert.
- Have a pigtail with the standard 7440 bulb that runs a line to the driver side and taps the reverse light wire.
We've already seen the actual modification isn't hard and would be extremely easy if one had a kit and tools designed by Toyota.
08-02-2011, 04:07 AM
#32
Agreed MightyP. But i'll doubt Toyota will do that just because their workers would have to cut out the hole and do some wiring. Meaning, they could mess up and BAM now they have to pour a couple more hundreds per person that they mess up on. Have you seen some of the workers at some dealerships(the ones that simply don't care). I know a few around my city. I don't think Toyota would trust their own workers to do that sort of thing. Alright, maybe not trust, but just because there is a chance that the workers could mess up. I believe Toyota designed the car the way it is now(even the missing back up light) thinking people would dig it, but most do not. Hell, i dig it just cause it's different from everyone else. So, after they learned most don't care for it they decided to put in one for the 2012. I HIGHLY doubt a professional car company would "mess up" on a completely missing light bulb and wiring on every single car.
08-02-2011, 04:22 AM
#33
^ Toyota, like all companies, is in it for profit. The question Toyota must answer for themselves before answering any of us is which will cost more? The lost sales due to a suffering reputation (whatever that might be) or the cost of adding a second light?
I agree that Toyota didn't simply forget to install the 2nd light. My guess is some markets required a rear fog light and rather than do multiple designs, they simply removed the fog for markets not requiring it. They met all the legal requirements without the cost of multiple designs and that isn't bad. I highly doubt it was anything intentionally shady on Toyota's part (it was poorly done if it was), rather a judgement call to save money that didn't pan out. Calling it a "design feature" is the marketing dept trying to save face.
nolakpd504, where I think you are wrong is by implying (intentionally or not) that these folks who want the feature changed shouldn't try. Whether or not they get it fixed, it will provide Toyota feedback on how people view their actions. _____ing about it on the forums is far less effective than addressing Toyota directly. If I were Toyota, I'd much rather have people open cases about a missing reverse light than _____ and moan on the forums and drive potential customers away.
I agree that Toyota didn't simply forget to install the 2nd light. My guess is some markets required a rear fog light and rather than do multiple designs, they simply removed the fog for markets not requiring it. They met all the legal requirements without the cost of multiple designs and that isn't bad. I highly doubt it was anything intentionally shady on Toyota's part (it was poorly done if it was), rather a judgement call to save money that didn't pan out. Calling it a "design feature" is the marketing dept trying to save face.
nolakpd504, where I think you are wrong is by implying (intentionally or not) that these folks who want the feature changed shouldn't try. Whether or not they get it fixed, it will provide Toyota feedback on how people view their actions. _____ing about it on the forums is far less effective than addressing Toyota directly. If I were Toyota, I'd much rather have people open cases about a missing reverse light than _____ and moan on the forums and drive potential customers away.
08-02-2011, 04:33 AM
#34
I'm all in supporting these guys. No, i won't add my name because personally i like it and opens opportunities for after-market taillights. Sorry if i sound rude, but i just have a hard time believing Toyota will do anything for these guys. In reality, theres probably an unnoticeable amount of cases about the missing reverse light.
08-02-2011, 01:12 PM
#35
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How do you identify a design flaw in this particular case? The radio issue of bass playing out of 1 side, in TC mode, could in fact have been the way it was designed to be heard by Toyota for the means of listening to music in a 2011 TC. However there were alot of complaints to have that changed, therefore the dealership fixes this by changing out the $600 HU.
The iphone 4 issue was recognized by apple and they even issued out free Rubber bands for a short timeframe to help the reception due to its design. They never recalled the phone due to this issue. You can still by a new iphone 4 of today and still have the same issue.
The iphone 4 issue was recognized by apple and they even issued out free Rubber bands for a short timeframe to help the reception due to its design. They never recalled the phone due to this issue. You can still by a new iphone 4 of today and still have the same issue.
08-02-2011, 01:59 PM
#36
^ Good question. Think of it like evolution and superpowers (just watched X-men, so go with me on this). I evolve and get a superpower. Whether I did something to intentionally get it (zapped myself with a ray gun) or not (bitten by a radioactive spider), I now have a "design change". How useful that change is depends on how much I like it. Let's say my superpower is to be irresistible to women. On the surface that could be a good thing. Being married, or if I were a straight woman, I might consider it a design flaw.
Point is, a benefit or flaw is determined by those who have or use it. It requires enough general input (lots o' people) to make that determination. If everyone liked the single tail light, Toyota would have kept it. Since people don't like it, they dropped it.
Point is, a benefit or flaw is determined by those who have or use it. It requires enough general input (lots o' people) to make that determination. If everyone liked the single tail light, Toyota would have kept it. Since people don't like it, they dropped it.
08-02-2011, 02:22 PM
#37
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Scion made a decision to release the 2011 tC in the USA/Canada with one reverse light on the driver's side. They changed this decision for 2012 and have both lights. Design change? Correction to a design flaw? Adjustment to appease a market share?
Corporate blather aside, it is a change that: many folks are not happy with, many don't care, and many will say 'step into my office'.
I bought the car knowing it had one light. I was concerned but it was not going to prevent me from buying what I saw as one of the best cars on the market under $20k. Had I known that the following model year changes in advance, I would not have bought the car (then), and since I could predict the future, I would also be rich since I would have bet tons of money on USA losing the world cup.
Again, this thread is here to provide folks who are not happy about this change a way to voice their opinion to Scion.
Corporate blather aside, it is a change that: many folks are not happy with, many don't care, and many will say 'step into my office'.
I bought the car knowing it had one light. I was concerned but it was not going to prevent me from buying what I saw as one of the best cars on the market under $20k. Had I known that the following model year changes in advance, I would not have bought the car (then), and since I could predict the future, I would also be rich since I would have bet tons of money on USA losing the world cup.
Again, this thread is here to provide folks who are not happy about this change a way to voice their opinion to Scion.
08-02-2011, 06:50 PM
#39
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hmm 2 can play that game... here goes....
The being known as Scion TC 2011 has grown from childhood into an Omega-Level Mutant who has the ability to tap into the enormous psychic resources of the astral plane in order to manipulate matter and energy at vast scales. However due to the unfortunate events, the almighty Scion TC 2011 has devolved by the powers of the sinister Toyota Corp from Earth-616 to 1 reverse light. The Age Of Toyotaclypse was to eradicate all mutants off the planet by any means necessary . Mr. Sinister did not like the plans that Toyotaclypse had set forth and with an act of aggression, Mr. Sinister used all his intellect to re-evolved the mutant known as SCION 2011 TC into the new being called SCION 2012 TC that once again possesses 2 reverse lights in the hopes that he will thwart off the reign of the evil Toyotaclypse.
!!!
Last edited by oblivionlord; 08-02-2011 at 07:13 PM.
08-02-2011, 08:09 PM
#40
The being known as Scion TC 2011 has grown from childhood into an Omega-Level Mutant who has the ability to tap into the enormous psychic resources of the astral plane in order to manipulate matter and energy at vast scales. However due to the unfortunate events, the almighty Scion TC 2011 has devolved by the powers of the sinister Toyota Corp from Earth-616 to 1 reverse light. The Age Of Toyotaclypse was to eradicate all mutants off the planet by any means necessary . Mr. Sinister did not like the plans that Toyotaclypse had set forth and with an act of aggression, Mr. Sinister used all his intellect to re-evolved the mutant known as SCION 2011 TC into the new being called SCION 2012 TC that once again possesses 2 reverse lights in the hopes that he will thwart off the reign of the evil Toyotaclypse.
!!!
!!!
since ur saying...in order to save the being (TC's in general) you say screw you to the few (2011 TC) and say long live the new (2012 TC)
?