1stOne

Question for you...

Why do you think no one is making a rear arm to adjust camber?

Additionally, why do you think TRD will not make anything which adjusts camber?

Finally....why do you need to adjust your camber?

2tCornot2tC

Fine tune the ballance and handling of the car...nothing off of any production line comes out perfect.

1stOne

How do you define what is perfect?

You also didn't answer why the other companies will not be making camber kits...

2tCornot2tC

1stOne

See, now you have me confused more...

You can't tell anyone why you need a camber kit nor can you define why top performance companies will not be making a camber kit....but best of all, you can't tell anyone how a perfect alignment is obtained and what it consists of.

You sir have



I rest my case.

WellesleyScion

Oh god.....

2tCornot2tC

First we need to agree on some definitions…so we all understand the same thing in the same way.
Perfect: only happens when every aspect of something is ideal – all the dimensions are ideal, the finish is ideal, even the color is ideal – every aspect needs to be ideal for it to be perfect…therefore nothing in this world can be perfect…not even the upper rear control arm of the second generation Scion tC.
Ideal: optimum, best.
Because we now know that nothing can be perfect, I would like to introduce the concept of acceptable. You seem to have difficulty in understanding or accepting that something that is acceptable is not perfect. When something is mass produced (the upper, rear suspension control arm in this case), there are acceptable tolerances that make the part useable in a production vehicle…again not perfect.
That upper control arm is a tie rod…the ideal shape for any tie rod is a straight tube and the absolute worst shape for a tie rod is an “S” shaped…and that happens to be the shape of this upper control arm. And to make it even worse, it is stamped out of a flat sheet of steel…slab sides is a no no for tie rods in compression. There goes perfect…right out the window.
Now I hope that you can see and accept that there were engineering compromises made in designing that rear suspension…again not perfect or even ideal here any more.
The stack-up of tolerances on the final assembly of the rear suspension allows for some variations in camber…hmmm, does not sound like perfect or ideal now does it?
What the engineers have deemed as acceptable for mass production in a car and making compromises for price is not “perfect” to me. The way you are talking, it sounds like the compromises that the Scion engineers made for Grandma to bring home groceries is “perfect” for you… I don’t drive like the masses…I don’t like the feel of an under-steering car that is deemed appropriate for the masses…or dictated by the lawyers.

rAaR

all this over some rear camber? wow

1stOne

Nope, just in the attempt to educate about proper suspension setups. Clearly didn't work. Oh well.

In short, camber, toe, caster, etc, should be measured, not guessed. Adding parts to your car in the attempt to improve it's performance, without first understanding what each part will do and the relationship they will have with others, is a pivotal mistake that most tuners make. Its often assumed that if I add 'X' part, my results should be a significant improvement from stock. This couldn't be further from the truth.

The fastest cars on a track are not the ones with the best/most parts installed, they are the ones who have been around the block and had the best tuning, learned from trial and error and have an understanding of why things happen the way they do.

So, again, in short, if you don't know why you are installing a camber kit, don't install one. You wont be helping anyone by fiddling with alignment settings if you don't know first what you are trying to achieve and second, how you measure your results. Butt-dynos are not a good indicator of "performance" FYI.

That's all...

noisy1eh

From the factory
FR -.21 camber
FL -.78 camber
Front toe -1/16"
RR -1.45 camber
RL -2.05 camber
Rear toe + 1/8"
Done on a Hunter Hawkeye Elite
This taken from the TRD spring instructions
Total Toe = 1.0 +/-2.0 mm (0.04 +/-0.08 in.) Camber = -0°13' +/-45' (-0.22° +/-0.75°)
Rear:
Total Toe = 3 +/-2 mm (0.12 +/-0.08 in.) Camber = -2°0' +/-30' (-2.00°+/-0.50°)(Modified by TRD USA) Note: camber is not adjustable
And i wondered why the car was skittish over bumps?

2tCornot2tC

Thanks for helping me out bro with hard numbers...
I was about to do another face palm and give up explaining.

1stOne

Give up explaining what? You haven't explained anything yet.

All you have shown is the hard numbers for factory, for the TRD, and that's it, but this thread STARTS with you guys complaining about camber and how to correct it back to factory specs after lowering (which is not good practice).

If no one here can figure that out, you shouldn't be posting like you know it all. That's all I've been trying to say.

You can banter back and forth if you'd like attempting to prove me wrong, but I can tell you this is not my first adventure into the world of alignments. If you care to believe 2tCornot2tC, go for it. Doesn't matter to me!

davedavetC

iTrader: (4)

lol i like you 1stone.

noisy1eh

2tCornot2tC & 1stOne
I am not taking sides on either but thats the #'s and the car came with.
The car felt a little funny last year when we got it, and in my 28+ years of testing roll cages and helmets i figured hell lets check.
You can see the #'s are not that fare of speck but if your just rolling down the road for work and using it as a people mover the gas mileage and tire wear on the rear will be excessive.
If your going to lean on it a little then you are going to feel the miss aliment.
As fare as the rest of the bickering and the rest of the #$%^& ,this i thought was a forum to help us all with our love of the automobile and making it unique for us the driver.
Lets help each other not take sides.

1stOne

Your point right there just basically pointed out what I've been saying...The idea of a "perfect" alignment doesn't exist. What works for some, doesn't work for others and you must setup your alignment based on usage. For many, the provided specs based on their suspension (TRD specs for TRD springs and stock specs for stock) is enough to enjoy the vehicle. However, as has been falsely stated here and in other threads about this multiple times, is that for the "best" results you must set your alignment to 0 degrees or back to 100% stock specs, regardless of suspension setup. This is wrong information and for many people learning here, that is not the right information to be providing.

So, to say you need a camber kit is completely false if you first don't know what your trying to correct (and saying "camber" does not mean you know what your correcting). You need to know what your alignment goal is and how that will effect everything else in your suspension system.

Also, remember that camber will only affect the way your tires wear, not the rate at which they wear. Toe is what causes your tires to wear faster.

XIEmperorIX

iTrader: (2)

Lmao good stuff...

Blackedout011TC

iTrader: (2)

It's r/c based but 99% applies to autos. If you are reading this thread, you need to read this link.
http://crcc.org.uk/rc-technical.php
I raced r/c for years, 1/2 to 1 degree of toe or camber off drastically kills handling. Noisy1eh, Scion should be ashamed your car left the factory that far out. Weight bias plus suspension parts " breaking in" could be a factor, but your's was horrible. I do not get why TRD has the rear listed for + toe out, it defies everything I know and have used. Maybe because the TC2 is FWD and no r/c is FWD only? They are either rear 2wd or 4wd. All the other suspension settings they listed are for maximizing tire life not for good handling characteristics...
But, bear in mind not everyone is racing their Tc or cares if it handles 100% to the best of it's ability. The average every day driver would prefer max. tire life over aggressive handling.

noisy1eh

The proper way to set camber for racing,is with testing and a heat gun or temp probe for each and every track you are at. You can run all the camber in the world to make it corner great but a race is won at the end and to much camber will induce a hot spot or band and will wear the tire if not make it fail. So its a happy medium and most smart racers will error on the side of wear and finish rather than pack in into a wall.

With the price of gas and tires and the laws stopping us from DRIVING our cars other than for a people mover the closer to 0 the #'s are the longer the tire wear and better the gas milage will be.
In trade school 30 years ago it was ,if no speck use .-75 front camber -1/16 toe. Rear was -.5 camber 0 toe for fwd and for rwd much the same on the front but you add caster and to make sure the wheels were square and parallel to rear.
I have seen new cars with the wheels up to 1" out of parallel but in speck and that makes one ill handling car but has nothing to do with the run of the mill aliments done today by most people.

We could make this a 1000 post thread on aliment but lets not, If he wanted to ask us what we thought was a good set up for daily driving or racing then maybe he should of come right out and said so, we all think ( X ) is the best set up...and we all could be proven wrong on any day.
Lets find a answer to his question " HOW to adjust the rear camber ？"
Somewhere down the line someone will need to for one reason or another who cares why.

1stOne

Your right, it could go on forever. So lets end the discussion now.

HOW to adjust the rear camber?

You can't.

Why is that? Because even with a drop, a small amount of negative camber in the front/rear of the car assists in the basic necessity of handling. Handling is not defined as something only race cars do, but rather you ability to lane change properly, hold your car comfortably on windy highways or if a transport passes you at speed, or, if you turn through an intersection, just to name a few. Correcting the figures presented to your car by altering the suspension without first knowing why your adjusting it can adversely affect your day to day handling abilities.

Think about it this way, your a football player. At the start of each play, do you stand straight upright, facing the opposing team, with your feet held tightly together? Or, do you alter your stance, so that the forces of your body are pushing back at opposing angles to the ground to help give you stability? The camber on your car is doing the same thing.

Additionally, the fuel savings (if any, remember, the rolling resistance of a factory 225 tire is greater than most competitive vehicles 205 width) will be offset to the negative in your vehicles suspension dynamics.

If you are building a hyper miler, buy a Prius (which BTW has factory camber). If you are lowering your car, use the specifications listed for your new suspension system when aligning the vehicle. If you wish to sway outside these figures, consult a professional first before opting to change the settings.

Again, there is no rear camber adjustment available.

End thread.

2tCornot2tC

I rest my case means that you’ve said what you are going to say and you’re going to say no more! That was back at post #25…now this is post #40!