CornerHugger

I honestly couldn't tell you how fast my engine is spinning when I'm trying to get going fast, as I rarely pay attention to rpms unless I'm just cruising and aiming to keep the engine turning at 2300 rpm which is about where our engines operate most efficiently. To get going fast without spinning or chirping the tires you simply do the same thing to get moving slowly, only let off the clutch and depress the throttle faster, porportionally. Aka not winding the engine up to 3500 and dropping the clutch, that would be a launch. And about the whole "downshifting will only wear out the transmission" thing. The reason you downshift is to distribute the force to stop the car between the brakes and the engine. If you were messing around on a backroad and never used engine braking(meaning the car is not in gear) you would have brake fade very quickly. Instead of putting it in neutral and relying on brakes 100% to stop you, it's much better to leave the car in gear and brake smoothly, downshifting to the appropriate gear as you come to a stop. This will preserve the life of your brakes significantly while only infantessimally wearing the trans. Try it yourself, next time you come to a stop from any speed, leave the car in gear and brake, downshifting 1 gear when the rpms hit about 1250. Then come to a stop with the trans in neutral. Notice how much more brake pedal effort you needed to apply to stop in the same distance? Well that should speak for itself. Obviously the brakes will be spared and you'll stop more efficiently. Automakers would have ATs go into neutral as soon as the brake pedal was hit if engine braking was pointless or harmful. Smh

Newman

Thanks for the info!
I do not believe engine breaking is entirely bad, it's only bad if you abuse it for daily driving (which you should not be doing, and I did it a little when i first got the car because i wanted to hear the sweet exhaust tone under deceleration).
It is good to a certain extent in daily driving, but if i am in 6th gear and i see that i need to slow down to maybe 2nd gear up ahead, i start to break while in gear and when i get to about 40mph or so i go into neutral instead of rowing through gears (rowing through them i think is unnecessary wear on the trans and clutch EVEN if you're really good at rev matching.). then at about 20mph or so i either go into 3rd or 2nd by rev matching. That way i only use the clutch to go into 1 gear instead of rev matching through up to 2-4 gears just to get there.

I would much rather replace my brakes than replace my clutch earlier than needed.
This is why i am trying to learn how to do things a little better for the overall life of the car, and why I am asking so many questions on here - its because it can help with overall maintenance.

CornerHugger

Lets take a step back here. Engine braking is never "unnecessary" or "harmful" in normal driving conditions, including daily driving. Every time you let off the throttle while in gear, you are engine braking because by definition, the motor is resisting the speed that the car is moving at, thus slowing you down. Lets differentiate rev matching and engine braking because you may be confused. Engine braking and rev matching are two completely different things. In fact, they're the complete opposite. Under normal driving conditions, you should never need to rev match. Rev matching is used in sport driving to downshift to a gear without slowing the car down. I.e. blipping the throttle so that when the next gear is engaged, the engine is already spinning faster so it doesn't resist the lower gear ratio you're trying to couple to it by slowing down the car. Now if you didn't blip the throttle, the engagement of the lower gear would be considered engine braking since the car would be slowed down due to the engine being sped up by the transmission. Rev matching will help with clutch life (although its very unlikely you drive your tc to the point where it would be beneficial) Engine braking doesn't affect the clutch's wear at all, it only helps you stop more efficiently by removing some stress from the brakes under deceleration. So to answer the original debate, engine braking is only helpful because it improves braking ability and save brake pad life. Hope that helps.

Newman

you sound like you do not rev match in your car ever under daily driving. Other people in this thread would strongly disagree and it was said by at least one person before, that "rev matching" using the clutch is just part of normal manual driving technique. We are not talking about "rev matching" a CLUTCH-LESS shift like busses and trucks.

Downshifting without rev-match does put strain on the trans and wears clutch infinitesimally as someone put it. this causes the engine to break for you much more than if you rev-matched that downshift. I think this is what you are talking about in your post above.

And excessive engine breaking can be bad in daily conditions. I used myself as an example. I was actually downshifting w/o rev-match when going into corners and using that engine breaking INSTEAD OF using or using much less of the brakes. This is bad, and no-one who wants to drive normally would ever want to use engine breaking in that way. I was just being stupid.

It has been said many times in this thread that regular rev-match technique which is part of regular daily driving can save the clutch and trans. period. These are not my words, but I do believe in this strongly because it is common sense. If you do not feel the downshift, the trans components are not being worn as much as when you do feel the downshift.

Why would I confuse rev-match and engine break? These are related though.

CornerHugger

I think we may be on different pages. What does rev matching a shift mean to you?

Newman

to me it means matching revs to wheel speed when going into any gear from neutral. which includes downshifting. Still using clutch.
Same technique used in "heel and toe"

in case my relatedness comment confused you (i can see why because it's vague) the two things are related because if you do NOT rev match when you downshift, then your engine will start breaking for you immediately upon downshift and will slow you down.

I am just trying to understand concepts and terms here, I am not trying to argue with anyone. what i have said just helps me get to the misunderstandings going on in this thread.

russiankid

Once you get enough practice driving a manual car, you won't need to rev up first then slowly release the clutch. I rev and simultaneously release the clutch. I know when the the clutch will grab, thus I can start releasing it before I even touch the gas pedal. As for not spinning tires, it is all about proper proportion. Gives a lot of throttle, give a lot of clutch. Also, our definition of taking off fast are different apparently. Preventing tire spin and taking off fast, to me, is launching which wears the clutch down.

As for the rev-matching topic. I rev match all the time. If I am cruising and I see that I need to be stopping relatively soon, I will start down shifting and use my brakes at the very last second to stop the car from maybe 30 mph or so. Granted, there are situations where this cannot be done and or downshifting is pointless. For example, if I am in 3rd gear doing 30mph, I am not going to down shift to 2nd when I come to a stop, I'll just use my brakes.

Newman

no I'm not talking about launching, sorry. just basically what you were doing.
I'm afraid if I let the clutch out too much and give too much gas that it will shake too much. I too know where the clutch grabs (it's near the middle). so you quickly put clutch to middle point and at that point give first gas and then quickly decrease-increase clutch-gas respectively from that point? I'm trying to understand smooth starting because i do not always get a smooth start and when i do it's kinda slower than i'd like.

russiankid

If it is shaking then you're not giving enough gas. Out of the 4 manual cars I've owned/rebuilt/autocrossed, the tC has the worst clutch feel. I noticed in this car it is all memorization/hearing the motor and just feel of the car moving. I usually pulse the throttle a little while slipping the clutch until I find the happy point for the car. By happy point I mean my rpm's are usually below 1500 when I take off smoothly, and as the car is starting to move, the RPM's slowly increase with the speed of the car. You will hear a lot of people rev the engine, the car starts to move and the RPM's drop a good bit which at this point the car shakes because not always do they drop nice and smooth. Also, once the car starts to move it doesn't mean give it more clutch and or throttle instantly.

Newman

that would make it lurch forward uncomfortably right?

the tC's clutch is a bit vague compared to my 99 eclipse. i liked that clutch more. plus no rev hang on that one either.
At least it's not like a mazdaspeed 3 though. that one has a pistol clutch that jumps out at you when you disengage lol.

But what you are describing sounds like a slow process. is it actually quick in reality when you do it because you are experienced? it's the description that sounds slow and gradual.

russiankid

If you release the clutch quickly without more gas, it'll shake and fall on its face. If you give it more throttle but no clutch, it'll burn the clutch, maybe go forward faster but mostly shoot your RPM's up. That is why you have to work simultaneously.

What I am describing is actually a rather fast process, and to be honest I had to think about how to describe it because it is so "automatic" for me that I do not think about it when I do it. Once you get practice it becomes second nature and fast.

If you were local I wouldn't mind showing you but from what I see you're from Jersey and that's a good bit of a drive for me.

Newman

i see. Do you mind describing how the starting sounds? (engine)
I remember i always see tuner cars or performance cars rev their engines a few times real quick (I assume it's the pulsing) when starting out. does this wear the clutch more than not revving multiple times, but just applying gas evenly to go? or is there no difference, and they are doing it correctly?
Cuz i figure the more frequently one revs while slipping the clutch, the more worn it gets. are these drivers just trying to find where the clutch grabs? i don't quite get it yet.

Here is what I mean about describing engine noise of start:
Sometimes i start and the engine noise goes up slightly but once the clutch grabs it goes down sharply and then goes back up as gas is applied to accelerate. to me this sounds like I am a driving noob.
Sometimes i start and the engine noise just goes up exponentially as the clutch grabbed, w/o a change in engine noise (so from quiet to loud evenly.) This is usually the smoothest start, but not always.

russiankid

A lot of it depends on how much you pulse the throttle and how high of a rev you allow it to do. I do maybe 2-3 pulses if that and they're small increments in increase of RPM.

Basically, what you want is the engine noise/speed to go up, but at the same time the car is actually moving forward with the noise. So noise goes up, car is moving forward, the noise stays constant (maybe drops off a bit, but very little) and then finally you accelerate. I noticed that the tC is kinda touchy to drive when it is cold, but once it is warm it is easier.

Edit: If I have some time tomorrow in the morning, I'll make a video for ya.

Newman

I think i get what you are saying, thanks! I'll try the gentle pulsing method and see if it helps me start smoother and slightly faster. because right now, 60% of the time I am one of the last cars to go if we're all lined up on a traffic light. I'm just that bad/slow at it

russiankid

How long have you been driving stick? Did you learn yourself or did someone teach you? Either way, I'll try to make a video to help you out.

Newman

I have been driving that eclipse for 2.5 years, then had 1 year of a break and drove autos then got the tC and have been driving her for 1 year so far.

When i bought the clipse the owner quickly went over how to drive manual for a couple of hours and i test drove her, but from then on i was on my own. which is why i am still missing many of the skills it seems like. but i never really stall or burn clutch. so i'd say I am doing ok. the eclipse never had the clutch replaced and i still didnt replace it while i had it and took it to 114,000 miles.
So about 3.5 years+ so far.

I have also driven my grandfather's Vaz (euro car) and my dad's Seat Cordoba a few times and they both said I am ok.

russiankid

Ah ok. Yeah, learning on your own can be difficult.

KILLER

This thread should be called "Transmission Talk" so much for maintenance... I won't get involved in the whole conversation you folks are having but can someone tell me what kind of fluid the aTC2 takes and more or less around what mileage should it be flushed? A DIY link or Youtube video would be good.

Newman

Yeah, sorry i started to digress. but it's all still related to maintenance. decent driving technique means you'll have an easier time with maintenance. I was not the only one confused about rev matching either. sounds like a decent number of people do not do it.

Older people who i work with that drove manual cars when they were younger tell me that they have very rarely had to rev match and some flat out do not know how to do it.

I remember doing a trans flush on my mitsu when i first got it, it had about 102,00 miles. I'd say that could be a decent time to do a trans flush. no idea on fluid for tC sorry, but flushing this fluid helps remove any metal particles that were worn over the life of the car right? It was just a given to me as part of maintaining an older car. but i never actually understood ALL the benefits of it.

russiankid

Fluid for what? Manual transmission or auto? Everything is stated in the owners manual, I know that manual trans fluid requires 75w80 gear oil, GL4. I would do it no later than 50k on the car.