Biznox

Nah, I'm not flaming you. Just making a little joke. If you were more sensitive to the nuances you'd realize that.

You'll know if I'm flaming you.

Rocket

This is a great debate!!!

Tool7f

Tomas, I just wanted to write a word of thanks. I just got the box, and yes, I got it for fuel efficiency. This is coming from a guy who's been driving a 4.0 Jeep Wrangler that got MAYBE 15mpg. I get around 30 with the xb, and yes, if I could get a few more mpg out of my tank, that would be awesome. Please keep us all updated with the tests, and if you guys prove it to be true, and not at all harmful to the car, I'll do it in a heartbeat. I don't really want to mess around with it too much if unproven because this is my only car and if it goes down I'd be screwed!

Biznox, the reason I didn't get a hybrid car is because they're way too expensive for a 21 year old dude living on his own, and IMO they are pretty ugly. I bought this car for the mgp, the way it looks, the easy customization, the great visibility, the PRICE, and it just being a bit different than the average. So yes, you have a point that the hybrids get better mpg, but hey, not all of us can afford to buy an ugly commuter .

Yoshiofthewire

Didn't Mythbusters do this aready?
And oh yea, your Scion get better gas milage then most Hybrids[/b]

Tomas

Yoshiofthewire, Mythbusters did NOT do this already and no one here has claimed that any Scion gets better gas milage than a Hybrid, only that hybrids are too expensive and too impractical for some folks needs.

For those with xBs, for example, not only are there no hybrids in the $15K range, there are no small, practical cargo-carriers. There are certainly no hybrids currently with the personality and interesting style of the xB.

If you can't be helpful, at least be nice. If you can't be either, just don't post.

Thanks.
Tom

Tool7f

^^exactly

Biznox

Buy a Prius or a Volkswagen TDI and you will get better fuel economy than a Scion running on pure acetone with 80 psi inflated 1 inch wide tires going 45 mph in 5th gear downhill with a strong tailwind.

If you are concerned (obsessed) with MPG this much then would it not make more sense to buy a car that is a fuel economy champ instead of a high strung city car that will never even come close to EPA numbers on the highway if you drive over 56 mph?

I used to have a '99 Volkswagen Jetta TDI and I got OVER 50 mpg on the highway on long trips going 75-80 mph (with a steady foot)

Diesels are much more efficient in general and respond to small changes in driving style more than gasoline engines, which are limited to the stoichiometric ratio. Diesels can run extremely lean and get richer in response to load as needed. The truth is gas engines suck when it comes to efficiency, diesels are superior in alot of ways, more durable, simpler, more reliable and more efficient.

You might look into that. If they had offered an xB with the 1.4 turbodiesel from the Euro market Yaris I would have jumped on it. Better than this little eggbeater engine spinning itself to death and producing no torque.

x_rayted711

Biznox...What the ..... I can't fit what I need to in a Prius OR a TDI. So drop it! I bought my xB for the mileage AND cargo...with a prius or TDI, you can't have both! And if someone wants to try to squeeze a couple or more MPG out of their car, NO MATTER WHAT CAR IT IS, as this is not just for xB's but all autos in general, why knock them?
They reason I am, as you put it, 'obsessed' with MPG, is because I didn't buy this thing to get the 'crappy' mileage it is getting. I knew it wouldn't get the 'hybred' or tdi mileage, but it was supposed to be better than what I am getting. If someone had said that this car would not get what the EPA said it would, I would have looked around a little more.

All, and I mean ALL of my newer cars have gotten above what the EPA stated as far as mileage until now...SO why knock ME for trying to squeeze a few MPG out of MY car?


Just to let you know...IF my ONLY objective was mileage, YES, we would have looked at the prius OR TDI, but NEITHER of those cars will serve us the way we need them.

Everyone has different needs in their cars SO DROP THIS IRRELEVANT POINT you keep trying to make!

P.S. If you try to buy a TDI where we bought our xB, you would not be able to. TDI in the 'green' states (New England region) are now banned. Now what biznox? What am I going to do when TDI isn't an option? Oh My!!!

mtxblau

Of course, the argument is that a Prius gets better gas mileage; however, there's almost a 10,000 price difference. And throw in the ridiculous markup because they're rare, and you see where that goes.

By Biznox's logic, engineers know everything, therefore CAI/SRIs, exhaust etc provide no performance gain, because if so, engineers would've already installed them. Same for stereo equipment; no one in their right mind would install a lousy stereo! Biodiesel is a farce, otherwise there would be biodiesel plants all over the U.S., since it's technically cleaner than diesel.

But seriously speaking, Toyota/Scion has no control over what gasoline companies but in (or don't put in) their gasoline.

By the way, Tomas, thank you. I've been following this acetone thing for some time now, but at the saturn forums. There's one fellow who has been taking very very close measurements for several months now, and has seen some performance gain, it is a pretty interesting concept.

Though I do wish message boards had filters like newsgroups; back in the day, you could just say 'do not download messages from this user'. Life was good.

djct_watt

yeah, my last still holds true, the fact that a hybrid or diesel will get better mileage does not take away from the possibility of different fuels affecting MPG. In fact, that notion is completely irrelavent to the point.

The dispute is regarding the effect of fuels on MPG, and the possibility of certain fuels surpassing others. Even if people were unreasonably obsessed with MPG, it has no bearing on whether or not they are correct.

You say they are wrong, but they say that they are right. So you say that they are obsessed. And so does that mean they are wrong? I'm confused with what you are trying to prove, other than throwing insults, because that point proves nothing.

Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong Biznox, but that you're last point didn't really make much of a point.

And on the argument of fuel brands and MPG, you'd be an idiot not to buy the more expensive fuel, if it saved you money in the long run. And I'm trying to determine for myself whether or not that is true.

Wheellug

I've been adding acetone since Jan '05 and keeping all receipts. On average I get 2 mpg city more.
I've stopped using it from time to time and after a couple tanks can tell a slight performance difference.
Is it bad for your car because its caustic or something? Gas is pretty caustic itself. Will it effect your rings/gaskets? Has been tested on variety of gaskets by placing in a pan and soaking in pure acetone. Only a minute amount of swelling occured after a couple weeks. Not running on pure acetone, only 2oz per 10 gal is the guideline I use. No ill effects so far for a year, only a benefit.

Oh.. cant afford a TDI or Prius, happy with my xB.

Chimmy3

I like the mythbusters idea...how about we try to get them to do it on the show if they haven't already?

there must be some way we can send in suggestions.

Wheellug: those gaskets and rings... after soaking have you tried to see what happens to them? like are they brittle... changes in texture etc?

elusivedragon

I was tempted to get a prius originally...but the price tag was too steep, plus the lack of cargo space...sure its a hatchback..but I had a Corolla already and did not want just another "car"

the xB gets very good gas mpg, has lots of room (i used it to move already)

that being said, i may try a tiny bit of acetone myself, what lends me to believe it does help is the fact it is an ingredient in gas treatments & cleaners already..that simple fact alone should tell you something

it might not be much, but gas prices going higher ...it adds up, and if i can offset that cost even slightly, i sure could use it right now.

x_rayted711

On a side note....I have looked at the ingredients on the fuel system cleaners and the ONLY ONE I found that specifically said it had acetone was the 'Chemdip B-12' stuff. Now I am not saying that they don't have it in there because they ALL say 'trade secret blah blah' with a bunch of patent numbers.

elusivedragon

i still think there are things out there that can make a big difference, but being the huge amount of $$$$$ oil companies make & also companies who make the "additives"...we never hear about it because then they wouldnt make as much money

things that make you go....hmmmmm

TEASER

Complete vaporization of fuel is far from perfect in today's cars and trucks. A certain amount of residual fuel in most engines remains liquid in the hot chamber. In order to be fully combusted, the fuel must be fully vaporized.

Surface tension presents an obstacle to vaporization. For instance the energy barrier from surface tension can sometimes force water to reach 300 degrees Fahrenheit before it vaporizes. Similarly with gasoline.

Acetone drastically reduces the surface tension. Most fuel molecules are sluggish with respect to their natural frequency. Acetone has an inherent molecular vibration that "stirs up" the fuel molecules, to break the surface tension. This results in a more complete vaporization with other factors remaining the same. More complete vaporization means less wasted fuel, hence the increased gas mileage from the increased thermal efficiency.



Everybody has been debating alot of points exept what the article / Acetone does,this makes alot of sence to me as a theorry alone. If no damage is to done to the engine then it might be worth wile to try. Gasoline is coustic in its self, and 1 to 2 OZ per 10 galllon certainly will not indanger any parts sceptics have mentioned.

The premise of the whole article is to allow gasoline to atomize / vaporize more efiecntly. Makes alot of sence to me, any scientist out there that can tell me acetone will not do what the above says? Allowing better vaporization / lowering surface tension.........?

djct_watt

That's a damn good question. . .

And if this is true, why is it not already an additive to fuel? Is there a reason beyond cost cutting?

oldmanatee

Just a wild guess, but acetone evaporates so quickly, reckon that might be a reaon it isn't used in quantity as an additive?

fuelsaving

Teaser, did you read my page on the subject ( www.fuelsaving.info/acetone.htm )? Plenty of studies have been done on engines where the fuel has been fully vaporised before injecting it into the engine, and the effect on economy is small or zero.

TEASER

I really dont need to read what you sugest. If there is a positive efect then great. Its nice that you have mentioned even in a good engine the efect is small, that is certainly positive enough for me.Imagine all the engines that are not fully Vaporing the fuels, and now we can understand why there will be an improvement in gas milage.

I only asked one question about complete vaporizayion of the Fuel, and weather Acetone can or could do as posted in the article.

Sorry Im not in need of asking, reading, defending. I would like the answer to the root of what Acetone does to fuels we burn.