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if I have any problems, I'll put my stock one back on, and take it in for waranty work.
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Originally Posted by hPower
Ok, let's see if I can give you a little bit of clarification here. First of all, the information I am about to share with you is from Mike over at www.NonStopTuning.com who can be reached on AIM at the screen name NSTonAIM. NST does nothing but build pulleys for a living so they should know what they are doing with pulleys.
There are two benefits to be had with aftermarket crank pulleys: 1. NST crank pulleys are built from aluminum instead of the steel used by Toyota. Weight reduction anywhere on an engine, especially the rotating assembly leads to much better throttle response and allows the engine to rev much easier. This has a great affect on the butt dyno. 2. NST crank pulleys are light weight and also underdrive some accessories. Slowing down the car's accessories reduces what is called "parasitic loss." Accessories actually rob some of the engine's HP to perform their job. Quality underdrive crank pulleys (NST) slow down the accessories by a small enough amount so that their performance does not suffer but enough to make a noticeable performance difference. Real companies spend a lot of money in R&D to know where to draw this fine line. The NST crank pulley is only a 10% underdrive pulley. This means you won't even notice the change in your accessories. The human body can not distinguish the difference between the A/C blowing at 50 degrees vs. 45 degrees. Furthermore, some owners love to throw A LOT of audio/video equipment into their cars and notice that their stock alternators can not keep up with these demands, yes even with stock crank pulleys. Some of you big stereo guys know what I'm talking about here. This is why NST has designed an OVERDRIVE alternator pulley to help these people. Just because you use an underdrive crank pulley does not mean you MUST buy the alternator pulley. Plenty of people in the tC forums run just the NST crank pulley and never have any complaints. Real companies like NST do real R&D and other companies build products that they don't need to educate you about, so they just take the easy way. Or they do copy-cat engineering, like OBX :no: [/img] Well put, not too sure about the name dropping, although I do agree only some companies do research while others just copy. Thought this may help this thread a little. Maybe. Again I am not encouraging anyone to do this for any reason. I am simply trying to keep those who want to mod educated to all reasoning. Nothing else. Good luck. |
4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?" People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term that is used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications that we offer utilize a counterweight as part of the pulley as these engines are internally balanced. The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that looks similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note that in these applications, this elastomer is somewhat inadequate in size, as well as life span, to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some of the imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say that with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most who have installed and driven a vehicle with our pulleys will notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is a natural result of replacing the heavy steel crank pulley with a CNC-machined aluminum pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable. The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke, displacement, inline, V configurations, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur. Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about the pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better. from vintage42 While this is tolerable in a small low-displacement low-power configuration, the vibrations get worse with increasing size and power. Most straight-4 engines below 2.0 L in displacement rely on the damping effect of their engine mounts. Today, most engineers will make use of balance shafts above that limit..." |
The crank pulley is in no way a harmonic balancer on the 1nzfe engines. I also ran int the same results as an earlier post the factory pulley was out a bit in balance. The agency power pulley was true I had it checked by the machine shop before I installed it. I also consulted four machinists and my scion mechanic at the dealership and they all said the same thing the pulley will not shorten the life of the engine. They all told me if anything it would extend it because the crank wasn't having to spin as much weight. once I installed it on the car I went back to the machine shop and they made sure it was spinning correctly and in balance. Lastly our engines will only reach the same RPM limit wether your running a stock pulley or and aftermarket pulley the pullley will not shorten the engines life in a natrually aspirated enviroment.
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Originally Posted by ghostrider25
The crank pulley is in no way a harmonic balancer on the 1nzfe engines...
1. Why did SCE send two emails saying that it was a harmonic balancer that dampens vibration? 2. Why does the Scion parts system call it a damper? 3. Why would Scion put make such a heavy pulley and put rubber in it? 4. Is some other mechanism used to dampen the inherent vibration of the 4-cyinder engine? Expensive internal balance shafts are only neded for big Fours. A pulley damper would be an elegant solution for the lesser vibrations of a little Four. This thread has diverged into two forks: 1. Is the pulley a damper? I think most people would conclude from the evidence that it is. 2. Does it cause problems to remove it? No one has heard of any. |
4. Is some other mechanism used to dampen the inherent vibration of the 4-cyinder engine? Expensive internal balance shafts are only neded for big Fours. A pulley damper would be an elegant solution for the lesser vibrations of a little Four. |
Originally Posted by Tim_Carr
4. Is some other mechanism used to dampen the inherent vibration of the 4-cyinder engine? Expensive internal balance shafts are only neded for big Fours. A pulley damper would be an elegant solution for the lesser vibrations of a little Four. |
2005 SCION XA Parts, XA 1.5L 1497cc L4 FI [1NZFE]. 2005 SCION XB Parts ... Balance Shaft, Balance Shaft Chain, Balance Shaft Elimination Kit, Balance Shaft ... https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/mak,SCION,2005 - 63k - Cached - Similar pages |
you want to resolve your issue go to the echo forums these guys have torn the motors down many times over and have alot higher mileage on their engines than we do running the same lightened pullies with no bad effects. The engines are internally balanced. Scion calls it a damper and discourages you from performing this modification because if they didn't they would be legally responsible for it and there is no telling what might happen if somone dropped the pin out when installing and had to claim warranty work. They are covering themselves period.
You have to keep in mind scions were not only made for us tuners but for old people and everyone else do you really think that they are going to sacrafice downshifting capabilities. I don't think so. Also this car was built on a budget which means cheaply. If there was a problem with the crankshaft with a lighter pulley you would see all sorts of problems and tons of vibration. Instead the motor actually becomes smoother at idle because these aftermarket pullies are truely balanced unlike the stock one. Somone said well if crank pullies were safe then why wouldn't TRD offer one. My answer to that and I am a TRD fanatic is why didn't they bring their extremely good header over here or the supercharger or the metal intake manifold or the titanium valve set that they don't even put on their website. The answer is who knows Toyota and TRD do what they want too and offer what they want too. If you wrote scion and asked about a supercharger they would most likely give the same kind of vaugue answer even though it has been succesfully done in japan by TRD they would tell you it wasn't safe blah blah blah. The echo guys say their safe and their running over 200whp out of their cars with high mileage then I don't think a pulley is going to hurt my natrually aspirated scion. I don't know who said there were rubber in the factory pullies but I looked at my 2006 stock xa pulley today AND THERE ISN'T ONE BIT OF RUBBER ON THE PULLEY. I put this in caps not because I'm yelling I just want everyone to see it. So the argument is dead about rubber in the pulley because there is no rubber there at all just metal and powdercoating. Maybe some of the first gens had rubber I don't know but the new ones don't. and if it was just speculation about the rubber in the pulley your dead wrong because it isn't there. So the stock pulley in no way can be a harmonic balancer which has been argued. Which leads me to the conclusion that these pullies are safer and more effetive then the factory ones because they are balanced correctly. My final thoughts are that scion just had to cover themselves legally and had no choice but to give a vaugue response and it probably was a canned answer. The replacement pullies are not out of wack like the stock ones and none and I repeat none of the echo guys that have gone with unorthodox perrin or agency power have had any problem with engine failure or it affecting the life of the motor. I have checked with many machinist that have torn these motors down and the mechanics at the dealership and they all said the same thing the motor is balanced internally and if anything it would extend the life of my motor. There are tons of people on the echo forums and here that have done these pullies and certainly by now somone would have had a failure the only bad things I hear about pullies are the charging systems on some of the underdriven pullies and nothing else. Also if you are that concerned about a pulley a properly lightened flywheel would give better results on a manual and having both is negligable. But on the automatics the pullies make a world of diffrence. I bought the automatic because it can reach higher speeds it has an extra gear.Bottom line scion is just covering their buts legally which they have to do period. If they told you it was ok and you screwed up on the install then they are liable so they blew a whole bunch of smoke up your but no offence. Go talk to the high mileage echo guys if you don't believe me they have had no problems with the pullies. |
Originally Posted by Tim_Carr
... our engines do have internal balance shafts.
https://www.scionlife.com/tech/manual/?manual=xb04_0001 The damper on the front of the crankshft is shown, but I see no balance shaft or shafts.
Originally Posted by Tim_Carr
...The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that looks similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note that in these applications, this elastomer is somewhat inadequate in size, as well as life span, to act as an effective torsional damper.... The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement....
1. "the engine itself" -- the 4-cylinder inherent imbalance. 2. "the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator". |
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... The engines are internally balanced...
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... Scion calls it a damper and discourages you from performing this modification...
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... scions were not only made for us tuners but for old people... do you really think that they are going to sacrafice downshifting capabilities...
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... If there was a problem with the crankshaft with a lighter pulley you would see all sorts of problems and tons of vibration...
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... Instead the motor actually becomes smoother at idle because these aftermarket pullies are truely balanced unlike the stock one.... Scion most likely put rubber in the pulley because they were making cheap pullies fast and didn't want to take the time to balance each one perfectly....
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Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... I don't know who said there were rubber in the factory pullies but I looked at my 2006 stock xa pulley today AND THERE ISN'T ONE BIT OF RUBBER ON THE PULLEY. I put this in caps not because I'm yelling I just want everyone to see it. So the argument is dead about rubber in the pulley because there is no rubber there at all...
Originally Posted by chadfo
I have determined that the 1NZ-FE engine does have a harmonic balancer... Below are pics of my OEM pulley... The rubber layer is pointed out in the photo below as well as holes drilled to remove weight to balance the unit...
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the desighn has changed on the new 06 models there is no rubber I repeat again on the factory pullies I assume they fixed an error or realized it wasn't needed. because there is no rubber or holes present at all. The echo guys are running over 200whp with these pullies and having no failures and there are no recorded failures of a lightened perrin or agency power pulley on our cars period some of these cars have over 200 thousand on them. you can selectively disect my post if you want but you cannot disprove anything I have stated. If the rubber was really so important it would be there on the 06 models. I don't suppose you have ever taken off your crank pulley have you. I love your mods napa shocks your a true road racer now. I am glad you have read basic engine theory thats a good thing but it doesn't mean a hill of beans most people know as soon as a manual is written it is outdated by technology almost immedietly. Scion has to cover themselves legally thats logical. With no failures on record and it's been verified that the factory pulley isn't completely balanced and the lightened ones are and considering the fact that the 2006 pullies have no rubber in them I think your argument is very obtuse. you would get laughed off the echo forums with that kind of post it shows pure ignorance about the issue at hand. All I can say is my agency power pulley was the best 95 dollars shipped I've spent. I also trust people who have experience in the area and have been running pullies before scions hit the united states. When somone can show an engine failure that was 100 percent verified to be caused by the pulley come back and argue it. I want to see in writing from three diffrent dealerships that the pulley caused your motor to blow because it won't happen. keep reading those manuals though they might help you learn. Maybe actually learning how to work on a car and do performance work and diagnostic work like going to UTI and becoming ASE certified and getting involved in SCCA might help expand your knowledge to make a good argument. Oh and just so you know the manual here on scion life is not even one tenth of the manuals on our scions. It is a very basic manual that is already outdated it can give you basic simple maintanience ideas though. I see so many posts that are inaccurate it's not funny.
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Originally Posted by Tim_Carr
... our engines do have internal balance shafts.
Originally Posted by Scion Customer Experience
From: Scion <scion_mail@scion.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:26:58 -0700 (PDT) To: <...@insightbb.com> Subject: Does xB have balance shaft? [Incident: 060816-000252] We appreciate your interest in the xB. We apologize but the xB does not have an internal balance shaft. |
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... the manual here on scion life is not even one tenth of the manuals on our scions. It is a very basic manual that is already outdated...
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Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... it's been verified that the factory pulley isn't completely balanced...
1. The name "damper" in the Scion dealer parts system. 2. Two emails from Scion Customer Experience saying that the pulley serves as a "harmonic vibration damper". 3. It's being called a "damper" in the Scion xB Repair manual here on ScionLife. 4. The encyclopedia saying that all 4-cylinder engines have an inherent secondary harmonic imbalance, the magnitude of which increases with displacement. 5. An email from Scion Customer Experience saying that the xB does not have an internal balance shaft to dampen its vibrations. 6. The Scion xB Repair Manual calling the pulley a "damper", and not showing any internal balance shaft. From all that, surely many people might conclude that the xB pulley has a damper function based on its name, weight and specialized construction. In addition to the rubber motor mounts, the dampener pulley is Toyota's elegant and inexpensive solution to counteracting the vibration of the little 4-cylinder 1NZ-FE engine. |
I think it is to the contrary. I never said anything about balance shafts. I just stated how the 06 scion pulley was desighned. I pulled an 04 the same as his today there are balancing holes true that tells me that their manufacturing process was way off to begin with and instead of starting over from scratch they had to drill holes to balance it and they still haven't gotten it completely balanced which is a big oops with a part that spins roughly 6-7 thousand rpms. The imbalance of the factory pulley could possibly cause the crankshaft bearings to wear out prematurly and could also cause oil leaks. I would say you have just as much of a danger leaving the stock pulley on as you do as replacing it with a lightened one at the very least you should pull your stock pulley off and take it to a machine shop and have it properly balanced.
I will say if you have a manual lighten the flywheel you will see more gains. pullies should be considered for the automatic scions. get your flywheel lightened and throw in a SPEC clutch they make some of the best clutches in the buisness. the 06 pulley isn't the same as the 04 as I stated why they changed it who knows. on the 04 pulley I could pull the rubber off there wasn't very much I wouldn't say it could serve much of any purpose. I just think if there were a problem with the pullies by now we would have had failures on the echo forums or here which we haven't and that should tell you something. you can debate it all you want but I trust the echo guys they have alot more experience with these cars than anybody here. I trust the machinists the mechanics I trust my scion dealer sating it wasn't a problem I trust my sponsor TRD telling me it wouldn't hurt the car and I trust my sponsor who makes the pullies that they have been tested and there are no issues. so thats really all I have to say about it debate it till your blue in the face I'm going to be out enjoying my pulley and car. one more thing I would like to add if I had a turbo on the car or supercharger I would have the stock pulley on it because I would want the downshifting capabilities even with the automatics we have a button to make it downshift. but my car is natrually aspirated and I am totally confident in the aftermarket pulley and the fact that the 06 model is diffrent then the 04 maybe it was needed in the 04 who knows but I don't think it is or we would have horrible stories of echos blowing up. later I'm out. |
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... the 06 pulley isn't the same as the 04... on the 04 pulley I could pull the rubber off there wasn't very much... the 06 model is diffrent then the 04...
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/...lleyOEM001.jpg So you have compared the 2004 and 2006 dampers and found they are different in that the 2006 damper has more rubber? Do you think for my 2006 damper Scion maybe changed the part number, or instead kept the old part number and just increased the rubber? I can check the part numbers at the dealer. |
there is no rubber on the 06 pulley you plagerize and twist my words get a life
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Originally Posted by ghostrider25
... the 06 pulley isn't the same as the 04... on the 04 pulley I could pull the rubber off there wasn't very much... the 06 model is diffrent then the 04...
Originally Posted by ghostrider25
there is no rubber on the 06 pulley you plagerize and twist my words get a life
I diid not think you meant "no rubber", because I have an 06 pulley on my xB and can reach down and feel its rubber ring with my fingernail. Are you saying you have seen an 06 pulley that has no rubber? |
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