interesting article about aftermarket pulleys.
06-12-2006, 04:43 PM
#21
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FYI - the discussion of domestic V8's (especially "stroker" 383s) is bogus here. They use "balancers" because the engines are externally balanced...the flywheel and balancer both have offset weights to balance out the crank.
Our engines are definitely internally balanced (almost all modern engines are.)
BMW uses things like Dual-Mass flywheels and special engine dampeners. Our Scions do not use these. Most failures I've read about on this forum are from bolts working their way loose. I say use a torque wrench and some loc-tite and you'll be good to go for a long time.
P.S. - would any factory tech article praise the use of ANY aftermarket parts? doubtful.
Our engines are definitely internally balanced (almost all modern engines are.)
BMW uses things like Dual-Mass flywheels and special engine dampeners. Our Scions do not use these. Most failures I've read about on this forum are from bolts working their way loose. I say use a torque wrench and some loc-tite and you'll be good to go for a long time.
P.S. - would any factory tech article praise the use of ANY aftermarket parts? doubtful.
06-12-2006, 05:58 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by sikbrik
FYI - the discussion of domestic V8's (especially "stroker" 383s) is bogus here. They use "balancers" because the engines are externally balanced...the flywheel and balancer both have offset weights to balance out the crank.
Our engines are definitely internally balanced (almost all modern engines are.)
BMW uses things like Dual-Mass flywheels and special engine dampeners. Our Scions do not use these. Most failures I've read about on this forum are from bolts working their way loose. I say use a torque wrench and some loc-tite and you'll be good to go for a long time.
P.S. - would any factory tech article praise the use of ANY aftermarket parts? doubtful.
Our engines are definitely internally balanced (almost all modern engines are.)
BMW uses things like Dual-Mass flywheels and special engine dampeners. Our Scions do not use these. Most failures I've read about on this forum are from bolts working their way loose. I say use a torque wrench and some loc-tite and you'll be good to go for a long time.
P.S. - would any factory tech article praise the use of ANY aftermarket parts? doubtful.
if u read what i wrtote that exactly what i been trying to explane but i guess i wasnt doing a good job lol
06-12-2006, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sikbrik
No, I got it IslandRomeo...you did a fine job. 
it's just that it can't be said enough on these forums when it comes to this topic. People are comparing apples and oranges.
it's just that it can't be said enough on these forums when it comes to this topic. People are comparing apples and oranges.
thanks
atleast now i know sone one understood me but i was wondering in our case comparing a xb to a chevy muscle car wouldn't it be more like comparing a boat and a box any way yeah people just gotta see that stuff made for our car's withthe exception of some e-bay stuff have been test and test to be ok and do better then what the penny pinchers at toyota because we are paying for it out of pocket and not trying to build a car that cost only 14k
06-12-2006, 06:52 PM
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I understood you....
intresting fact though about pullies alot of people have them and i have never really heard a major issue, not on this forum; on this forum concerning our cars its usually hearsay from someone who knows a guy who knows a guy etc. etc. i have not seen any first hand accounts from any of the members, alot of people are hesitant and worried about warranty etc. but in all reality i hear more issues about superchargers and turbos then i do about pullies.
intresting fact though about pullies alot of people have them and i have never really heard a major issue, not on this forum; on this forum concerning our cars its usually hearsay from someone who knows a guy who knows a guy etc. etc. i have not seen any first hand accounts from any of the members, alot of people are hesitant and worried about warranty etc. but in all reality i hear more issues about superchargers and turbos then i do about pullies.
06-12-2006, 07:16 PM
#29
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you people... the post was not about telling folks what to do... I just found the article interesting and informative, expecially since it mentions Toyota specfically.
It was posted as read and enjoy.. that's all..
The V-8 part was just talking about balancing... not a comparison. I should not have mentioned it within this thread I guess.
When you say modern.. What years become modern?
I just find it humorous that people on this site are so eager to badger each other instead of simply informing folks.
Have at...
singleshot
It was posted as read and enjoy.. that's all..
The V-8 part was just talking about balancing... not a comparison. I should not have mentioned it within this thread I guess.
When you say modern.. What years become modern?
I just find it humorous that people on this site are so eager to badger each other instead of simply informing folks.
Have at...
singleshot
06-12-2006, 07:23 PM
#30
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as far as what is moder there isnt really one good answer bacuse all car makers bring things "up to date" at diffrent times the only expale i can offer is the 95 mustang was the last pushrod v8 and 96 went to OHC where as import cars had been using them for what seems like forever
06-12-2006, 08:48 PM
#31
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When you say "you people", are you referring to married white males between the ages of 20 and 40??? lol
SingleShot, you mention that the V8 part was just talking about balancing, but to what end? In this scenario, it could only lead to confusion. People may start to think that our engines are externally balanced, leading to more "panic" threads about pulleys.
The last externally balanced small block Chevy was the 400...I believe it ended in 1972. The Chevy 454 was also externally balanced and may still be but all newer generation big blocks (i.e. 502) are not. Chrysler A, B, and RB engines were externally balanced until the late 70's. I could not find any examples of an externally balanced OHC 4 cylinder anywhere, even the old Pinto engines. If someone knows of one, that would be news to me. That's why I said something about referring to the balancing issue at all...it could definitely cause confusion in this thread. Pick up a stock 70's Chevy harmonic balancer and one of our stock crank pulleys and compare. Pick up a BMW flywheel and our stock flywheel and compare. Drive a BMW and a Scion and compare (I had to throw that one in...) It's apples and oranges.
I guess, to me, "modern" means currently produced in some form. I'll agree with IslandRomeo that "pushrod" engines don't seem very modern, even though the LS series Chevy V8's and the new Hemi's still use them. VVT-i is certainly modern.
I certainly wasn't jumping on anyone for this and nobody has been remotely flamed...I just want to make it clear that Toyota and BMW engines, for example, should not be compared to each other. Nor should Toyota and Chevy, Ford, etc. Even the Mazda crowd, where this is very heavily debated, now realizes that it was only the early 1.6 engines that were affected by changing crank pulleys.
SingleShot, you mention that the V8 part was just talking about balancing, but to what end? In this scenario, it could only lead to confusion. People may start to think that our engines are externally balanced, leading to more "panic" threads about pulleys.
The last externally balanced small block Chevy was the 400...I believe it ended in 1972. The Chevy 454 was also externally balanced and may still be but all newer generation big blocks (i.e. 502) are not. Chrysler A, B, and RB engines were externally balanced until the late 70's. I could not find any examples of an externally balanced OHC 4 cylinder anywhere, even the old Pinto engines. If someone knows of one, that would be news to me. That's why I said something about referring to the balancing issue at all...it could definitely cause confusion in this thread. Pick up a stock 70's Chevy harmonic balancer and one of our stock crank pulleys and compare. Pick up a BMW flywheel and our stock flywheel and compare. Drive a BMW and a Scion and compare (I had to throw that one in...) It's apples and oranges.
I guess, to me, "modern" means currently produced in some form. I'll agree with IslandRomeo that "pushrod" engines don't seem very modern, even though the LS series Chevy V8's and the new Hemi's still use them. VVT-i is certainly modern.
I certainly wasn't jumping on anyone for this and nobody has been remotely flamed...I just want to make it clear that Toyota and BMW engines, for example, should not be compared to each other. Nor should Toyota and Chevy, Ford, etc. Even the Mazda crowd, where this is very heavily debated, now realizes that it was only the early 1.6 engines that were affected by changing crank pulleys.
06-12-2006, 09:25 PM
#32
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06-12-2006, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by singleshot
http://my.is/forums/showthread.php?t=286507
the pictures mid way down.. modern engine?
the pictures mid way down.. modern engine?
06-12-2006, 09:38 PM
#34
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you've read all that I have now...
I'm currently searching for more info. But I tell ya.. a lot of aftermarket manufacturers make "replacement" harmonic dampeners for toyotas.
I just called the Toyota parts department and asked for a replacement crank pulley for a scion xB. They said the name of it was "pulley/dampener".
I'm currently searching for more info. But I tell ya.. a lot of aftermarket manufacturers make "replacement" harmonic dampeners for toyotas.
I just called the Toyota parts department and asked for a replacement crank pulley for a scion xB. They said the name of it was "pulley/dampener".
06-12-2006, 10:11 PM
#35
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I Am A Mgr./Warranty Tech At A Shop And Have Installed The Agency Power Lightend Crank Pulley.....The OEM Pulley On Our Cars (xA/xB...not sure about the tC)
Do NOT Incorperate a External Harmonic Balancer( Multi Peice Pulley) They Are One Peice Cast Pulleys.....When I Got The New One I Took Mesurements Of The OEM & Agency With A Micrometer And The Agency Pulley Was EXACT To The OEM And The Install Was A Breeze Took Me MAYBE.....20min Including Racking The Car The Pulley Was A Quality Peice And Has The Guide Pin Alignment Hole Just Like The OEM.....I Know that You Should Never Install A One Peice In Place Of A Multi Peice Dampend Balancer But The 1NZ Owners Need Not Worry About This Delema....Hope This Helps Some Coming From Someone Who Has Done This First Hand.....Oh And THE PULLEY IS WORTH IT!
Do NOT Incorperate a External Harmonic Balancer( Multi Peice Pulley) They Are One Peice Cast Pulleys.....When I Got The New One I Took Mesurements Of The OEM & Agency With A Micrometer And The Agency Pulley Was EXACT To The OEM And The Install Was A Breeze Took Me MAYBE.....20min Including Racking The Car The Pulley Was A Quality Peice And Has The Guide Pin Alignment Hole Just Like The OEM.....I Know that You Should Never Install A One Peice In Place Of A Multi Peice Dampend Balancer But The 1NZ Owners Need Not Worry About This Delema....Hope This Helps Some Coming From Someone Who Has Done This First Hand.....Oh And THE PULLEY IS WORTH IT!
06-12-2006, 10:32 PM
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I'd like that paper to define "high continuous loads". Is 25hp per cylinder a high enough load to create the charts they are showing?
I agree with devious...this concept is great and valid for engines that it really applies to but that was not a tech paper on the 1nz. Sure, the theory is the same, but in the real world this isn't going to affect our engines as much as the multitude of higher-powered, heavier rotating mass engines out there.
The original article IS informative, it IS good reading, it IS correct, it ISN'T a good reason to avoid the lightweight pulleys for Scions. That's just my $.02, over and over enough times to make a buck. I'm out of this one...
I agree with devious...this concept is great and valid for engines that it really applies to but that was not a tech paper on the 1nz. Sure, the theory is the same, but in the real world this isn't going to affect our engines as much as the multitude of higher-powered, heavier rotating mass engines out there.
The original article IS informative, it IS good reading, it IS correct, it ISN'T a good reason to avoid the lightweight pulleys for Scions. That's just my $.02, over and over enough times to make a buck. I'm out of this one...
06-14-2006, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sikbrik
I'd like that paper to define "high continuous loads". Is 25hp per cylinder a high enough load to create the charts they are showing?
I agree with devious...this concept is great and valid for engines that it really applies to but that was not a tech paper on the 1nz. Sure, the theory is the same, but in the real world this isn't going to affect our engines as much as the multitude of higher-powered, heavier rotating mass engines out there.
The original article IS informative, it IS good reading, it IS correct, it ISN'T a good reason to avoid the lightweight pulleys for Scions. That's just my $.02, over and over enough times to make a buck. I'm out of this one...
I agree with devious...this concept is great and valid for engines that it really applies to but that was not a tech paper on the 1nz. Sure, the theory is the same, but in the real world this isn't going to affect our engines as much as the multitude of higher-powered, heavier rotating mass engines out there.
The original article IS informative, it IS good reading, it IS correct, it ISN'T a good reason to avoid the lightweight pulleys for Scions. That's just my $.02, over and over enough times to make a buck. I'm out of this one...
http://www.suprasonic.org/public_htm...atedamper.html
Straight from Toyota.
06-14-2006, 08:49 PM
#39
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I am far from an engine expert, but even I know the difference between an external, harmonically balanced crank pulley and a standard crank pulley.
This is a replacement pulley for a Supra like was mentioned earlier...
This is a harmonically balanced pulley. You can tell by the design. As I understand it the center of the pulley is the harmonic balancer.
Here is a picture of a typical replacement pulley for an xB...
You can see that these aren't harmonically balanced. And from everything I have ever seen and read, neither is the stock crank pulley. If the stock crank pulley is not harmonically balanced from the factory, there is no need to use a harmonically balanced aftermarket pulley. And using a non-harmonically balanced crank pulley is not going to hurt the engine.
Another thing to keep in mind is that over the years "harmonic balancer" and "crank pulley" have become all but interchangeable. Since at one time there was a single integral unit that performed both functions they became known as one in the same. However, this isn't always the case now. But because this was the standard practice of manufacturers in days gone by the term harmonic balancer became synonymous with crank pulleys.
Flame away.
This is a replacement pulley for a Supra like was mentioned earlier...
This is a harmonically balanced pulley. You can tell by the design. As I understand it the center of the pulley is the harmonic balancer.
Here is a picture of a typical replacement pulley for an xB...
You can see that these aren't harmonically balanced. And from everything I have ever seen and read, neither is the stock crank pulley. If the stock crank pulley is not harmonically balanced from the factory, there is no need to use a harmonically balanced aftermarket pulley. And using a non-harmonically balanced crank pulley is not going to hurt the engine.
Another thing to keep in mind is that over the years "harmonic balancer" and "crank pulley" have become all but interchangeable. Since at one time there was a single integral unit that performed both functions they became known as one in the same. However, this isn't always the case now. But because this was the standard practice of manufacturers in days gone by the term harmonic balancer became synonymous with crank pulleys.
Flame away.