vettereddie

Can anyone on the SL boards please advise me. I had an engine failure about a week ago where the #3 rod ended up being broke and knocked a hole in the block. The dealer tech is claiming water ingestion hydrolocked the engine. I have the TRD cold air intake on with the air bypass valve specifically designed to prevent hydrolock. Also, when it broke, it was not raining, nor was there any standing water on the road. I have the weather report from the day for that area. The failure was almost identical to this post:

https://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148996

His engine got replaced under warranty.

I have called the Scion Customer Experience, they talked to the tech and are going solely by his estimation of what happened to deny coverage. I thought an independant rep gets sent out for things like this.

Please give me any helpful suggestions. I'm aware of the Magnusun-Moss Warranty Act but in the dealer's eyes, they feel they've proved the failure was caused by the "aftermarket" TRD part. Is there a way to argue this?

I'm calling AEM today to see if I can get any data or backing from them on this.

burstaneurysm

Sadly, you might have a hard time arguing the case since your engine is boosted. Generally, they can say that boost could've caused the failure too (which is probably more likely).

Goodluck, but I'm afraid it might not get very far.

Black_Sheep_xB

you have to ask for a meeting with the DSM, District Servive Manager, then ask to have the plugs pulled and the water lock shown to you, or the water contaminated oil, IF they can prove this, then your insurance should pay for a hydrolock situation.
If your intake was dealer installed and warrantied, and is to blame, then you also have a case in your favor

vettereddie

The engine was already pulled and the head taken off. There was not water in the cylinder but they did say there was pitting, corrosion and discoloration on the wall that showed water damage. The intake is not a warranted part, did not say so on the site it was purchased from or in the documentation that came with it, but it does say that in the Scion accessory booklet. It was also self installed, purchased over other brands specifically because it had the air bypass valve to prevent hydrolock. They said there was too little oil left in the block due to the hole to take an oil sample.

I'm also calling AEM to see if they could offer any support (Labeled as TRD but it is the AEM intake). I may also get insurance to cover it under comprehensive as water damage not from a flood. I really just want my car back without having to foot the whole bill for repair, I haven't raced, changed the oil regularly, checked the fluid levels weekly, and have maintained the vehicle to the best of my ability.

vettereddie

Not totally SOL, if it csn't be covered through anyone I do have a second 1NZ-FE with 20k miles on it waiting to go in. I was going to build it up over the next year and add a 9.5 psi or so turbo to it, funny how these work out though as I may need it sooner than that. Needs to be de-coupled from the transmission and inspected but it's another option. The crank can be hand-turned with the plugs removed so it's not seized. I'd just prefer to have the dealer do it to have the new motor hopefully under warranty. I will not be putting any power mods on the replacement engine until after 60k miles.

Black_Sheep_xB

Well, i'm sorry to hear that..
however, being a mechanic in Miami, I have seen a lot of hydrolocks and there is always the white sludgy oil stuck to the walls, it doesnt leak out like that... You would still have beads on the dipstick, etc.,. I think they successfully shafted you.. your insurance should still cover it, it also may be the way to go, because they WILL send an inspector to view the so called water damage, and if he doesnt agree, you have a leg to stand on again (he is considered a "technical expert" and can be used in court).. if he does agree, then you got a motor.. either way.. crappy and time consuming.. sorry dude

Black_Sheep_xB

you know I have this same plan, but I know as soon as buy the second motor, this one is doomed.. lol

vettereddie

Too true, it was literally two weeks after I bought the second one that the first one went. No white sludge, just pitting in the cylinder wall, and a grey powdery residue. The really wierd thing was the exhaust valves of #1, #2 and #4 cylinders were the normal black, the exhaust valves on the #3 were greyish and clean. #1 piston also had a crack all the way through it and was twisted, and the #1 and 3 valves had been bent where the pistons hit them after the rods let go.

The GEICO-contracted independant mechanical breakdown inspector agreed with the tech's assessment, and since mechanical breakdown doesn't cover water damage or damage from aftermarket parts under my insurance policy, it won't be covered under mechanical breakdown. The claim has now been transfered to comprehensive coverage who now has to send out a claims adjustor, different than the inspector. They should be there today or tomorrow.

It's true what they say, "the waiting is the hardest part". It went down on Feb. 23, if I has said screw it and just thrown in the second engine myself, I would be done by now. It took the dealer only 4 hours to pull the motor topside and take the head off, the trans and lower bracing weren't touched. I will be asking for the old motor mounts though because I didn't get all the bolts for the mounts on the second engine.

Does anyone know if the dealer rebuilds the head and replaces the short block and puts back the stock intake if it will then come back under warranty for the remaining 40k miles? If I do a self swap on a used block obviously all coverage is gone.

Black_Sheep_xB

usually non warranty repairs are 12mo./12k miles..
they have to give you all your bolts, mounts back (just
make sure to account for them before you leave).
Clean valves is water or a nitrous use lean condition will turn stuff white as well.... wonder if the head was leaking internally..
The dealer sends the head to a head shop..

vettereddie

That's what I was thinking, cooling system leaked into the #3 since it was the only one with clean valves. Was grey, not white and all four plugs looked the same / normal, no coking on the plugs so I don't think it was a lean condition, and never ran nitrous so that isn't a cause. I had switched coolant to accomidate a killerglass tube, so I'm sure the next arguement would be the coolant switch. It was Engine Ice, which is silicate and phosphate free like the Toyota coolant, and is sold for use in aluminum blocks with aluminum water pumps. I need to get the pictures GEICO took for their assessment, I didn't have a camera when i was at the dealer.

Can't do anything with Toyota at this point without taking legal action, comprehensive adjuster will be there this afternoon. Going back to stock to avoid any future headaches. I know SEMA and the law allows for aftermarket, but when the people honoring the warranties won't acknowledge evidence contradicting aftermarket parts causing failure and won't look for alternate failure modes, I don't have the technical, legal or financial resources to fight it. I was hoping Scion was different seeing as how they offer these parts from the dealer and advertise mods and personalization, but it's becoming clear that sales and service aren't on the same page. This will probably be my only Toyota.

Black_Sheep_xB

I work at Acura, when I got denied an EVAP emissions
repair under warranty everyone at the shop said the same
exact thing. How can a company that actually pushes these
mods on their cars not hold up to thier product because you
did go this route. I thought they were different as well. I even new the service writer, he was an old Acura tech! As a
tech, I never even mention mods on a car that are under warranty because I know it
did no harm, and I don't want to hassle a guy over it. we had
a guy get denied a transmission on a car with 15K miles
over a header!! Then we replaced an engine under warranty
with the NOS lines still run to it. Even working at the dealer,
they still do not make any sense. The rules change by the
minute, the innocent get screwed and the jerks get it free. Well, at least motors for these boxes aren't too bad ($) used, and their are enough wrecked for other parts (thats how I
fixed my EVAP leak). Again, Good Luck

hwybox

For future refrence go back to stock before you take a hydrolocked motor back to the dealer, and save you self the pain. CAI comes off and stock airbox goes back on= new motor.

Black_Sheep_xB

^^ yeah

draxcaliber

there are lots of companies that deny warranty coverage over performance parts.

take for instance the saleen n2o ford focus. it was a ford focus with a nitrous kit already installed, but the warranty was immediately void if there was any evidence that it had been used!

Black_Sheep_xB

We had a guy with an RSX Type S with the spray still installed, blow his motor, and bring it in. The manager denied it under warranty, he went to the DSM, and got denied. It wound up in court, the dealer couldnt prove he was spraying during the break down event, he got his motor... 2 months later same guy, same car, and another blown engine.. this time we could see the outline of the window numbers that were on his windows from the track, still had the nitrous, and we had an engine overspeed code in the PCM.. long story short he got ANOTHER motor.. this time the dealer brought the code (on a printout), but not the data capture of the event.. the data capture showed an intake temp of 42 or so degrees in MIami in June!! They told him that if he blew another motor they would be buying back the car..
then you have a guy spray paint his valve cover and successfully get an engine denied..
luck of the draw I suppose

vettereddie

Well, this might end up in court if I don't get it resolved. I honestly did not know the TRD intake wasn't a warranted part, it was not listed as such on the site I bought it from, there was no mention of in in the paperwork that came in the box, and I (stupidly I suppose) assumed that since it was a Toyota part sold as an option through the dealership it would be covered. It does say in the sales manual the dealer has for off-road use only apparently, but who takes a box off-road in the first place? I may try and take it to another dealer but I don't want to have inspecion bills pile up that I would then have to pay.

Black_Sheep_xB

if you go to another dealer, make sure this one has put the engine back together correctly and completley,
they will void you for someone having been in the engine..

Black_Sheep_xB

according to a writer at aol autos, he answered a guys
question about aftermarket parts and warraties.. the writer read through the warranty act and stated this as the out come:
"This means that, under the provisions of the Magnuson-
Moss Warranty Act of 1975, an automotive
dealership/carmaker cannot void your warranty because
your vehicle has been modified with aftermarket parts. They
(the manufacturers) have to prove that the failure was the
direct result of the installed aftermarket part. Unfortunately,
too many folks have gone to a dealer to have warranty service performed on their modified vehicle only to have the
dealer refuse to cover the defective items. The dealer usually states, that because of the aftermarket parts
installed, the warranty is void (without even attempting to
determine whether or not the aftermarket part caused the
problem). This is illegal...period."

they have to prove water entered via the intake, they
themselves say no water was present, therefore unable to
prove its source, sound correct?

Black_Sheep_xB

P.S.
You will win in court, any tech expert should know a
hydrolock, leaves the engine locked in water, and the white
sludgy oil remains glued to the walls, and everything else
that goes with a hydro lock, wet filter etc.,.
they dont have a leg to stand on and prove any of that, based on their own findings thus far.
In court they can say what they want, but when your side requests proof of whats being claimed.. photos of the water in the engine etc.,. they lose, their "word" doesnt prove anything , the fact that the intake is for off-road use only and may void blah blah, doesnt matter, even on TRD's site it states if the part is at fault then your void at the dealer, but just cause some tech's opinion is such, there still isnt hard proof. Like I said a lean condition will cause clean valves, your still left with the option of injector failure, a PCM fuel trim problem, a cam lobe defect, a timing issue, and if the "expert" says it is damged caused by water entry you still have the head leak as an argument (since there is no water present else where), etc.,. any of these are just as possible, this in its extreme would lead to detonation, and the rod through the block, since the engine is dry of water hydro lock is the last possibilty..
I am now kinda pushing court because the law is in your favor, meaning you deserve a new engine and the remainder of your warranty

if a guy gets shot, they have the bullet, they match it to your gun, they still have to put your finger on the trigger at that time and place. They don't even have the bullet.. they just got the hole.. feel me?

vettereddie

I'm sending an arbitration letter to the National Center for Dispute Settlement today as per the guidelines in the Scion owner's warranty booklet. I believe arbitration needs to occur prior to legal action, but that would be the next step. My initial thought was a void in the casting of the rod, leaving it structurally weak and failing prematurely.

GEICO still has the claim out as well for comprehensive coverage. Arbitration could take up to 40 days, so if the GEICO claim is approved first they would then seek re-reimbursement from Toyota if they approve the claim. I'm hoping they do so I'll at least get the car back sooner.

Thanks for your support, I was hoping it wouldn't be this difficult.