Soon2BxB

those are my headlights u are talking about- and they are not BMW projectors - they are Euro spec valeo ECE projectors from an audi

an they dont look good LOL

uhmm yeah thats it

lets see

first off - they are TRUE HID .. not junk h1 projectors you toss an hid kit in .,... second off .. they are using a 60 led grid for turn signals and have a full 12" ccfl tube for parking....

and guess what THEY ARE ORIGINAL .. how cool is it going to be to have the same exact headlights every other xb owner is going to have

you may not like em .. ure entitled to your opinion .. but my headlights will run CIRCLES around your headlights even with an hid kit ...

you spent 330 on headlights.. and will prolly drop another 300 on a kit .. and you will still have worse light output then STOCK XB HEADLIGHTs

yeah thats the way to go


sigh ... some people will never learn

Soon2BxB

f for results huh ... lets see your headlights .. oh wait ... let me guess .. they are STOCK XB HEADLIGHTS ...

when i had these headlights made .. I WANTED TRUE OEM HID ... and thats what i got ... with a little pizazz ... hence the REAL LED turn signals and CCFL tube

as i started in prev post.. you dont have to like em .. but no matter what you do to those 300 headlights .. whether you add an hid kit ... or not ... they will NEVER COMPARE to the output that i get from mine


and frankly they are BUTT UGLY ... whats witht he 3 little circles down at bottom ... and holy ripoff batman with the angel eyes ... since when did we drive bimmers ?

and those h1 bulbs are really giong to give out some good light ouput .. you do realize .. those are FOG LIGHT projectors.. they were never meant to be used as HEADLIGHTS

hey its not my 300+ dollars being wasted

Soon2BxB

you guys have alot to learn about lighting


are you all telling me that you will WILLINGLY toss out 300 to have WORSE light output ?


that baffles me ... but some people are all about looks

ME... i like to see where i am going at night ... so id rather opt for the REAL DEAL then waste 300 dollars on headlights that IMO are ugly ... but more importantly have POOR VISION

hahajoey

more ugly lights to add to the ugly light collection.

dgHotLava

WOW, you really are bitter about your ugly lights....

and i said you got an a for effort, nobody would make their own lights.

and oh my god when did we start driving audi's??? cring on bwm when you ripped of an over priced volkswagon....

just take a chill dude.... (three posts tring to defend yourself is just sad)

Munch

LMAO Don't worry bro he spent well over $300 for those nasty lights he has for his car. He was trying to sell them alittle while back too . I guess he found out just how ugly those things are. I have a HID kit which I paid absolutly nothing for, so I guess my total of $330 will net me a nice little headlight upgrade. I like the lights, otherwise I would have never brought them. I like the look of the lights over the stockers. I didn't buy them for light output. So sorry to burst your bubble. Have fun with your Audi lights, I'll keep my lights

Soon2BxB

hahaha theres a difference in USING OEM PROJECTORS

verse

totall ripping off BMW ANGEL EYES

im using the projectors for the optics .. not to have COOL ANGEL EYES

anyways ... that retro has actually been sold .. and i currently have 2005 Acura TL Bi-XENON projectors

so YES i will enjoy my OEM HID ... while you put around with your crappy taiwanese brand 100000k hid kit in your FOGLIGHT projectors

in the end ... guess who will be seeing the road better at night ... it aint going to be you

but as i said before .. if you are dont mind not being able to see at night .. more power to you

Soon2BxB

hrmmm RICER ?? ...

you bought the lights for looks over safety .. good choice my friend


hell why you are at it .. why not just paint the whole front of the light to match your car.. that would look cool .. after all .. you are AFTER LOOKS rather then light output

Munch

Nope sorry the HID kit I have came off my friends crashed up Nissan Maxima. I'm not gonna argue about stuff I buy for my car. You like what you like, and I'll like what I like. If you don't like what I put on "My car" Too bad . You don't have to drive it . Now back to the original post.

Soon2BxB

im calling bluff on that .. because OEM HID .. is only based as D2s or D2r ... or D1s .... your AWESOME projector headlights use H1 bulbs... so guess what .. you got REBASED CRAP ..

now the ballasts - they can be Phillips or hella or osram .. but the BULBS ... are still rebased... what brand are the bulbs... whats the color temp rating ?

Soon2BxB

but to be fair to this post and other members

ill leave it like this


munch, djhotlaval .. i got no hard feelings against you 2 .... just dont see how you can knock my TRUE hid retro and call these headlights being offered... AWESOME


i respect your decision on the headlights as i assume u respect my opinion on them ... ill squash the matter and stop cluttering this thread

tOm

dgHotLava

actually if you check back a few posts...


from me....
you can see that i said they look funny....

nuff said....

uncompiled

I don't want to turn this thread an argument, but the only way you're going to get any HID setup working in these projectors is with an HID conversion kit... and it's going to suck. Well, relatively speaking.

There's a reason why HID conversion kits are illegal. HID and Halogen have different lighting characteristics. HID is an basically an arc of light, whereas halogen bulbs use a filament. Even though projectors have a sharp cutoff by nature, it's not going to come close to the lighting offered by OEM projectors that have been designed for the sole purpose of projecting the beam of light that comes from a xenon arc. If you don't understand this, then you shouldn't be fooling around with something that could cause danger to yourself or the people around you.

I don't know what the obsession with HID is. In fact, there are some factory cars with HID that do not have as good lighting as some cars with ECE halogen lighting. I think most people just want the "look of HID". If that's all you want, you might as well save yourself some money and just buy PIAA bulbs and throw them in a projector.

The problem with HID conversion kits is that everyone is going to think that their lighting has improved. It's both psychosomatic (it HAS to be better, it's whiter, it's more expensive, and it's HID) and human perception (your eyes and your brain tricking you into think that the light is brighter than it actually is). They've already done tests with OEM halogen bulbs versus the PIAA Xtreme White bulbs that showed that the hyper white bulbs LOST light output. What people need to do is get some photometry equipment and actually measure light output from a rebased HID conversion kit in a halogen housing compared to the stock lighting.

NOW BACK TO THE TOPIC:
I actually like the original TYC lights better. Even though the little LED "eyebrow" made it look busy, you could have always disconnected them. I like projectors, but these just have too many of them, LOL. There are just circles everywhere. It looks better in the chrome, but in the black, they look like mutant spider eyes or something.

Hrm, spider eyes... maybe they will be the new "angel eyes".

mD5

how can you reclaim that rebased bulbs are crap? i took a pair of phillips d2r bulbs and rebased witha an h4 bracket i mocked up. the focal point of the hid bulb is in the exact same spot it would be if it were an h4 bulb. i also have an oem kit just not behind a projector lens. actually came from the headlights of an audi rs6. i DO agree that oem foglights will never be as bright as oem headlights (your h1 vs headlight bulbs argument) foglights werent meant to be used as headlights as they have a wide beam pattern, and headlights have a range on them. but oh well. retrofit an oem hid projector in those headlights and they'd be great?

Soon2BxB

couple things ... even with an hid kit ... using it in a reflector or projector designed for halogen is not going to yield optimal results .. whether it be a foglight projector or headlight projector


also ... as for retrofitting a hid projector into those headlights

its not going to happen

those projector slots are just too small ... you MIGHt and i say MIGHT be able to force a Valeo projector in there with alot of forcing ... trust me .. ive already pondered the idea (even though i think these lights suck ... i would use em if i could fit dual hid projectors in there)

TorneoDude

All rebased may not be crap and it sounds like you have at least done more homework than alot of guys who just wanted to look cool.

You mentioned the focal point and you hit on a valid point. If you lit an H3 bulb on a loose holder and moved it in and out it through the H4 mounting/openning on the OE xB headlight, the photometrics would change dramatically as it moves deeper inside the lamp unit and toward the lense. (Of course I'm only suggesting this as a quickie demo; you'll burn your fingers off in a couple of seconds trying to hold the socket with a lit H3 for more than a split second, but I think it makes the point. If a bulb is not rebased with the arc-center in the correct distance from the base, the light output pattern would be changed.)

Also, have you ever looked at a OE halogen H4? It has a chromed reflector cup directly beneath the Low-beam filament to insure that the beam bounces off the top of the headlamp reflector. The "correct" H4-based HID tube has a complete half-pipe shield under it so that the light is blocked from directly striking the bottom (which would bounce the light upward). Cheaper H4-based aftermarket HID conversions may be lacking in this area or be missing the shield completely.

In the case of the projectors, the amount extra space required by the shield on the H4 HID, may mean that they wont fit unless the shield is removed and H4/9003's-based headlamp systems were designed to illuminate upward inside the lamp housing for Low beam and downward for bounce back up for high beams. Other headlamps are shaped to send the light left/right inside the headlamp for hi and low beams. Using any kind of lightsource inside of a lamp that does not direct it at the correct focal point or direction inside the lamp that it was designed for will give poor light output, a lousy cut-off, and excessive glare.

I do not agree that HID's are just for people who follow fads or want custom colors. Photo light meters are also not the end/be-all for measuring headlamp performance. Light meters made for photography are generally set to react to the amount of full-spectrum light available for filming. The less red and yellow spectrum balance in your headlamp output and the less the meter will react.


Lighting is about more than just color or lumens; although it is documented that "real" HID systems whether retrofit or OE have 3x the lumens output of halogen. Our eyes are not 35mm cameras with 200 ISO film behind our eyes. It is not wishful thinking or mind-over-fact that my HID's in the stock OE housings are 1000% improvement over the best SilverStar or PIAA halogens. Trying to argue that halogens are on an equal par with HID is a losing proposition.


But there are details to be considered like the fact that the useable light drops off significantly with each color shift above 6,000K. People who are in it just to look cool with 10000K-14000K are getting a nice purple or green hue but may not realize how much useable light they lose because that color just does not reflect back very well. Even then however, HID light output never drops below halogens.

The rest of it is ALL about proper application to get the use out of the light. I read some stinging comments by an expert in the automotive lighting business about the misconceptions even among halogen lighting that increased wattage equalled "better" lighting. In other words, many believe that if the light output of a Cibie 7" headlamp was very-good with a stock 55/65 watt bulb, that an 80/100 watt had to be even better. What the expert pointed out was that the lamp lens and reflector have certain specific photometric qualities that max-out at a certain physiological limit and increasing the intensity of the light-source cannot breach this threshold. Therefore the excess luminance beyond the physical limits of the reflector/lens assembly simply becomes waste in the form of glare and scatter and can actually interfere with the normal light pattern.

Too much foreground light is the enemy of distance vision and HID's can really cause a worsening of overall visibility if the increased luminance is not properly directed. It can also increase glare and scatter if this output far exceeds the capacity of the headlamp unit. In otherwords, putting in the wrong HID into a system can be just as bad as the wrong type or too high a wattage standard bulb. (This is why I went for 8000K HID rather than 4300K or 6000K; because I personally believe these are too luminous for the 2800K-halogen based designed OE xB headlamp systems. I felt that 8000K was the best amount of drop-off in the HID range without sacrificing luminance and still making a notable improvement over halogen.)

The point made in this thread that HID powering projectors that were not designed for anything but 2800K halides may not be popular but may actually have very valid merit. Despite the greater luminance of the HID light-source, a large percentage of the HID's light may convert to waste in the form of scatter and glare.


So, it all comes down to oversimplification. It may not be fun to do the homework but it could save alot of wasted money and effort.

Hopefully I've overcomplicated it a bit for everyone. :oops:

.... Oh well...

I enjoyed a nice long ramble anyways

uncompiled

No, I don't think you overcomplicated it at all. The main problem is that a lot of people don't do the research before making the plunge into purchasing an HID lighting system.

Some of the posts in this thread (maybe even mine) may sound preachy, but I think the original intent was just to help the people that care from making a decision that they might otherwise regret. There will always be people who don't care to learn more about what they are investing in, but I think you explained it pretty well without sounding overly didactic.

popalock85

OMG.....
We all have scions here right?
It's apparent that some know more than others when it comes to certain subjects.
I'm extremely interested in getting a great projector head light and HID conversion kit for my xB.

Instead of writing a book why don't the "o so knowledgeable ones" put their wisdom to use and let us retards that are willing to spend $800 for a dramatic lighting improvement and a really classy look know what we need to accomplish the best end result.

I can't even begin to imaging how many perameters are involved with matching projector lights with HID kits or if that is even a relevent issue.

I know I really want my lights to give my box an elegant look, like a BMW or Benz or one of my favorites the Honda S2000.

If I want to educate myself on how to make a Projector Headlight to maximize the spectrum balance of the headlamp output of a ....WTF ever, I'll be sure to reference the novels wrote in this thread.

Word.....

TorneoDude

FIRSTLY:

Let me apologize to all those who just hate long posts.

JUST SKIP ALL THE WAY TO THE BOTTOM for the "Short & Sweet"




Because, unlike the car manufacturers, we are all just fellow hobbyists here. Much of the modifications on these xB's are not off-the-shelf products. Unfortunately there is plenty of ready-made stuff that doesn't really work like it is expected to even though it is commercially manufactured. By contrast , I doubt if any of us have the resources (money, manufacturing-facility, & testing lab) to fully/properly "develop" a factory-perfect system on our own without a fair amount of trial and error.


What this forum proves is that the lack of a fully-funded R&D lab to develop and thoroughly test modifications has not stifled many xB owner's creativity in experimenting with homemade mod.s in an attempt to make an improvement. Unfortunately it is always easier (and cheaper) to criticize the end-results of someone elses attempts than to come up with another new alternative. So there will always be more said about what is wrong with an idea or product than creative solutions to make something that works better in its place.


If there were a 100% "correct" HID/projector combination out there already ready-made, your Scion dealer would probably be offering it at a righteous premium. Additionally, it is clear from many posts that not everyone is interested in changing/upgrading their lighting for the same reason. For some, the esthetic appearance pales in significance against the gains in illumination whereas others are more interested in how the lights affect the "look" of their xB. (Soon2bxB appears to have highly functional lighting but many objected to the way they look cosmetically. )

So, there is no simple formula available in a one-size-fits-all box.

I hoped to be of use by suggesting what I felt where some pitfals to avoid and limitations to consider. I think my dual-HID lighting set-up is very good although it is fairly OE-looking (except for the driving-lamp HID Hi-beams in the grille) but I will stop short of recommending anyone else follow my $1000 pattern. I am certainly not advocating, advertising, or defending my choice(s). (I could afford to spend this kind of money to "play" around with my "company car" because I own the business. Not everybody else can or would want to.)

I was happy to share some of the experience I have had installing HID into my xB and some of the research details I thought might be of help. What I and some others are warning is that it would be too easy to simply assume that any available combination of aftermarket lighting units and any HID lamping would make a "good" upgrade to the OE headlights. It might be wise to wait to buy the HID-projector system that was pointed out in this thread until a few others could give us feedback (and lighting pattern jpeg.s) to let us know how they actually worked. If a person is looking for a style change, it's just a matter of personal taste. If one was looking for "better" illumination, there were some potential issues that fellow xB Scion owners expressed concern about (like H1 bulbs and fog-lamp projector rather than headlight-beam design) that were worth drawing attention to.

I guess the short & sweet of it is :

You're on your own. Sorry


Good Luck & remember to have fun along the way.

TorneoDude

I promised some pictures once I finished my HID-mods to the OE headlights on my xB ...

Well, I finished it last night.

While my beam-pattern pix did not quite come out like I had hoped (see below), they do show a sharp cut-off for the low beams and give at least a limited idea of the HI-beam capability albeit not nearly as accurately as in-person.

Although not everyone's cup-of-tea, I'm very happy with the result and while willing to share my mod. with the rest of the Scion world, am not seeking anyone's approval or feedback nor am I advocating it as a recommended course for anyone else to follow. I'll be happy to answer any questions but am really not interested or concerned with critical feedback.

Okay,

I have new pix posted of the grille/HID mod starting on this page:

http://groups.msn.com/2005ToyotaTorn...ti.msnw?Page=6

Be sure to click on the thumbnails to enlarge the detail and read the comments if you follow this link.

OR...

They begin with the first picture in the link below:
(If you use this link, just use the "next" tab above the photo to scroll through them without having to click on thumbnails for each one.)

http://groups.msn.com/2005ToyotaTorn...oto&PhotoID=72




About the beam pattern pix...

I'll apologize in advance for the quality of the nighttime shots of the headlight patterns. The camera was set for Landscape Mode rather than Night Scene. Landscape Mode is intended to accentuate greens to make scenery more vivid. The correct way to take these photos would have been to set the shutter and aperature priority manually or possibly to use the Night Scene mode.

I also did not realize how much being at an angle to the garage door would throw off the view/alignment of the high-beam's visible hotspots. The light reflecting off the white door was so intense that, in person they were much less distinctive and they tended to migrate off center depending on whether your viewing angle was from the left of right.

Again, the camera's auto light-metering system reacted to the intense light in contrast to the otherwise pitch-black surroundings by reducing the aperature and speeding up the shutter to the point where it muted and darkened the photos. The close-ups are okay for pattern but tend to mute the light and increase the contrast too much to give a decent idea of how bright the light actually is. The distance perspective tends to do a better job of this.

The intensity of the light can be better seen when looking at the LOW-beam/cut-off distance photos. To get a better guage of how much light the high beam-system is actually producing, compare the the high-beam distance shot with the low-beam distance shot and the final one with the yellow fogs on . Keeping in-mind that the intensity below the low-beam cut-off is the same with the high-beams lit as it is on low-only provides a little better point of reference for comparison.

Once again, I apologize for not taking better night shots. I hope they are good enough to demonstrate approx what my HID set-up can do.