OTG neg camber plates!!! Finally
08-18-2005, 03:28 AM
#82
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Stop Sean!
I know, I know, peeps are going to be mixing styles.
JDM w/ DTM, and a bunch of other stuff and its just going to kill the camber mod.
I always thought camber was for better handling, steering response, fitting wider wheels than would normally fit, and a specific theme.
Guess I was wrong. It'll get played out like the halo/projector headlihgts. Time to take those off also.
Van's camber plates are nice though, and 886motorwerx will have them in stock shortly also.
I know, I know, peeps are going to be mixing styles.
JDM w/ DTM, and a bunch of other stuff and its just going to kill the camber mod.
I always thought camber was for better handling, steering response, fitting wider wheels than would normally fit, and a specific theme.
Guess I was wrong. It'll get played out like the halo/projector headlihgts. Time to take those off also.
Van's camber plates are nice though, and 886motorwerx will have them in stock shortly also.
08-18-2005, 05:16 PM
#84
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
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I always thought camber was for better handling, steering response, fitting wider wheels than would normally fit, and a specific theme.
Now, when we lean a wheel of any sort off from vertical it generates a turning force -in the direction of the lean-. Think about rolling a hula hoop or a bike tire, how you would steer it: by giving it a sidways lean, it will curve off in trajectory.
In Model T this pronounced scrubbing/turning force is countermanded by deliberately toeing-in the front wheels. If we don't toe in Model T, the results are two-fold:
-the steering directional stability is terrible and
-tire life is reduced, easily, by 50%.
--what does this have to do with cambering modern cars at their rear wheels today? Well only this. The same laws still apply. If we camber for performance and appearance, tire life must suffer. To minimize that effect, it would be nice to see a small amount of toe-out.
Does Van or anyone -toe out- these camber plates? Even with modern wide tires I would think it would aid tire life to toe out a bit, as well as aid cornering. I don't -know- this, I only use deductive logic to raise a likely-valid point.
08-18-2005, 08:38 PM
#85
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Location: Bay Area, CA
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Hello guys... loooong time no see! I tried to at least lurk around scionlife for a while, but these past 2 months have been so crazy I haven't even had a chance to login. Been dealing with a move into a new shop location, and just working on various side projects for fun. These past 3 weeks especially have been super crazy, as I was trying to finalize production of the camber shims, in addition to doing some crazy stuff to a friend's car before he moved out of state... had to pull many an all-nighther and am sort of paying for it now (if you've seen the TLC show Overhaulin'... imagine that scene, but instead of a team of 20+ people slaving away on a car till 5-6am, imagine just one person... ouch). Anyway, the camber shims were also slightly delayed a week or two because I was trying to help the machine shop refine their machining process so that they could mass produce the shims accurately and consistently. The angles are very slight (especially for the toe correction), and although it's easy to make a one-off set perfect, it's another ordeal to make sure that you can duplicate things over and over. So anyway, that leads us to now: the One Ton Garage Scion rear camber shims with toe correction are available.
I've been slowly trying to catch up on emails now, so if you haven't heard from me in a couple days (or even a week or so), expect to receive a reply soon. Or if you don't want to wait, please feel free to drop me another email just to remind me.
I haven't had a chance to update the www.onetongarage.com web site yet with the camber shim page (as we've been having some host server issues too), but will do so by this weekend I hope. Here's some of the info that I will include on there, presented here in a more haphazard order...
- The Scion's rear beam suspension design allows the rear tires to automatically toe-in upon travel. What this means is that as your car goes over bumps, and your rear wheels go up, their camber and toe alignments go in.
Lowering the car increases the static camber and toe, so if you get your alignment checked, you will find that your camber and toe will be a bit greater than stock specs (assuming all you've done is lowered the car). Now when you add additional negative camber, you exacerbate the problem that the toe alignment creates, because as the suspension moves, toe is also increasing, but by an even greater amount now because of the additional camber.
Now negative camber alone usually does not kill tires quickly, but it's the combination of "bad" camber and bad toe that will do your tire tread in in no time. And in the case of the Scions, when you add more negative camber, you're adding a lot more toe, and that's why some folks who've run some of the other aftermarket rear camber kits have experienced a little more tire wear than usual.
What I wanted to make was a camber kit that would allow people to achieve the look of additional negative camber (and to be honest, I'd say the main reason people will want to buy this-or any-camber kit is for the looks), while minimizing the amount of tire wear they would normally experience from any other negative camber setup. Figure the amount of money you save on not having to replace your tires as often will more than make up for any price difference between the OTG camber shims and any other ones out there (although I believe a lot of the other jdm shims might cost more). Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but as far as I have been told by some japanese club bb folks, there are no camber shims from japan that adequately corrects the toe alignment also, which is why I was looking at getting them over to japan, too.
Anyway, I think this is all the info I had off the top of my head... I hope I've answered some questions. If there's anything else anyone would like to ask, don't hesitate to email me: van@onetongarage.com. I promise I'll get back to you soon(er or later)!
I've been slowly trying to catch up on emails now, so if you haven't heard from me in a couple days (or even a week or so), expect to receive a reply soon. Or if you don't want to wait, please feel free to drop me another email just to remind me.
I haven't had a chance to update the www.onetongarage.com web site yet with the camber shim page (as we've been having some host server issues too), but will do so by this weekend I hope. Here's some of the info that I will include on there, presented here in a more haphazard order...
- The Scion's rear beam suspension design allows the rear tires to automatically toe-in upon travel. What this means is that as your car goes over bumps, and your rear wheels go up, their camber and toe alignments go in.
Lowering the car increases the static camber and toe, so if you get your alignment checked, you will find that your camber and toe will be a bit greater than stock specs (assuming all you've done is lowered the car). Now when you add additional negative camber, you exacerbate the problem that the toe alignment creates, because as the suspension moves, toe is also increasing, but by an even greater amount now because of the additional camber.
Now negative camber alone usually does not kill tires quickly, but it's the combination of "bad" camber and bad toe that will do your tire tread in in no time. And in the case of the Scions, when you add more negative camber, you're adding a lot more toe, and that's why some folks who've run some of the other aftermarket rear camber kits have experienced a little more tire wear than usual.
What I wanted to make was a camber kit that would allow people to achieve the look of additional negative camber (and to be honest, I'd say the main reason people will want to buy this-or any-camber kit is for the looks), while minimizing the amount of tire wear they would normally experience from any other negative camber setup. Figure the amount of money you save on not having to replace your tires as often will more than make up for any price difference between the OTG camber shims and any other ones out there (although I believe a lot of the other jdm shims might cost more). Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but as far as I have been told by some japanese club bb folks, there are no camber shims from japan that adequately corrects the toe alignment also, which is why I was looking at getting them over to japan, too.
Anyway, I think this is all the info I had off the top of my head... I hope I've answered some questions. If there's anything else anyone would like to ask, don't hesitate to email me: van@onetongarage.com. I promise I'll get back to you soon(er or later)!
08-19-2005, 02:20 AM
#89
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,834
Originally Posted by ScionVan
Hello guys... loooong time no see! I tried to at least lurk around scionlife for a while, but these past 2 months have been so crazy I haven't even had a chance to login. Been dealing with a move into a new shop location, and just working on various side projects for fun. These past 3 weeks especially have been super crazy, as I was trying to finalize production of the camber shims, in addition to doing some crazy stuff to a friend's car before he moved out of state... had to pull many an all-nighther and am sort of paying for it now (if you've seen the TLC show Overhaulin'... imagine that scene, but instead of a team of 20+ people slaving away on a car till 5-6am, imagine just one person... ouch). Anyway, the camber shims were also slightly delayed a week or two because I was trying to help the machine shop refine their machining process so that they could mass produce the shims accurately and consistently. The angles are very slight (especially for the toe correction), and although it's easy to make a one-off set perfect, it's another ordeal to make sure that you can duplicate things over and over. So anyway, that leads us to now: the One Ton Garage Scion rear camber shims with toe correction are available.
I've been slowly trying to catch up on emails now, so if you haven't heard from me in a couple days (or even a week or so), expect to receive a reply soon. Or if you don't want to wait, please feel free to drop me another email just to remind me.
I haven't had a chance to update the www.onetongarage.com web site yet with the camber shim page (as we've been having some host server issues too), but will do so by this weekend I hope. Here's some of the info that I will include on there, presented here in a more haphazard order...
- The Scion's rear beam suspension design allows the rear tires to automatically toe-in upon travel. What this means is that as your car goes over bumps, and your rear wheels go up, their camber and toe alignments go in.
Lowering the car increases the static camber and toe, so if you get your alignment checked, you will find that your camber and toe will be a bit greater than stock specs (assuming all you've done is lowered the car). Now when you add additional negative camber, you exacerbate the problem that the toe alignment creates, because as the suspension moves, toe is also increasing, but by an even greater amount now because of the additional camber.
Now negative camber alone usually does not kill tires quickly, but it's the combination of "bad" camber and bad toe that will do your tire tread in in no time. And in the case of the Scions, when you add more negative camber, you're adding a lot more toe, and that's why some folks who've run some of the other aftermarket rear camber kits have experienced a little more tire wear than usual.
What I wanted to make was a camber kit that would allow people to achieve the look of additional negative camber (and to be honest, I'd say the main reason people will want to buy this-or any-camber kit is for the looks), while minimizing the amount of tire wear they would normally experience from any other negative camber setup. Figure the amount of money you save on not having to replace your tires as often will more than make up for any price difference between the OTG camber shims and any other ones out there (although I believe a lot of the other jdm shims might cost more). Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but as far as I have been told by some japanese club bb folks, there are no camber shims from japan that adequately corrects the toe alignment also, which is why I was looking at getting them over to japan, too.
Anyway, I think this is all the info I had off the top of my head... I hope I've answered some questions. If there's anything else anyone would like to ask, don't hesitate to email me: van@onetongarage.com. I promise I'll get back to you soon(er or later)!
I've been slowly trying to catch up on emails now, so if you haven't heard from me in a couple days (or even a week or so), expect to receive a reply soon. Or if you don't want to wait, please feel free to drop me another email just to remind me.
I haven't had a chance to update the www.onetongarage.com web site yet with the camber shim page (as we've been having some host server issues too), but will do so by this weekend I hope. Here's some of the info that I will include on there, presented here in a more haphazard order...
- The Scion's rear beam suspension design allows the rear tires to automatically toe-in upon travel. What this means is that as your car goes over bumps, and your rear wheels go up, their camber and toe alignments go in.
Lowering the car increases the static camber and toe, so if you get your alignment checked, you will find that your camber and toe will be a bit greater than stock specs (assuming all you've done is lowered the car). Now when you add additional negative camber, you exacerbate the problem that the toe alignment creates, because as the suspension moves, toe is also increasing, but by an even greater amount now because of the additional camber.
Now negative camber alone usually does not kill tires quickly, but it's the combination of "bad" camber and bad toe that will do your tire tread in in no time. And in the case of the Scions, when you add more negative camber, you're adding a lot more toe, and that's why some folks who've run some of the other aftermarket rear camber kits have experienced a little more tire wear than usual.
What I wanted to make was a camber kit that would allow people to achieve the look of additional negative camber (and to be honest, I'd say the main reason people will want to buy this-or any-camber kit is for the looks), while minimizing the amount of tire wear they would normally experience from any other negative camber setup. Figure the amount of money you save on not having to replace your tires as often will more than make up for any price difference between the OTG camber shims and any other ones out there (although I believe a lot of the other jdm shims might cost more). Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but as far as I have been told by some japanese club bb folks, there are no camber shims from japan that adequately corrects the toe alignment also, which is why I was looking at getting them over to japan, too.
Anyway, I think this is all the info I had off the top of my head... I hope I've answered some questions. If there's anything else anyone would like to ask, don't hesitate to email me: van@onetongarage.com. I promise I'll get back to you soon(er or later)!
.....................................................................................................................Van Phan
Van, it's guys like you that really make credits to this hobby.
OK! Now that I know you are sensitive to the toe aspect and have allowed for this,
I want to buy a set of your new camber plates right now.
How soon can I have a set?
PM me or even advise right here.
Reid
08-19-2005, 03:01 AM
#90
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,152
To the one that said negative camber is a fad, Better look at the people with meatball taillites. THose are here to stay just like negative camber. It's the "JDM" look everyone wants.But whatever, will be doing it someway or another to achieve a look unlike anyother. Better go pick up a copy of Option Wagon and check this "fad" yourself. Over 50% of the cars in that mag use in upwards of 5 degrees or more. That is jusr sick and looks really good when done right. That falls in to another proclaimed fad, VIP. But, whatever, America seems to be the land of fads, right?
08-19-2005, 03:47 AM
#91
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
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Done right I see now that neg. camber gives real pluses to cornering. It might make some "downsides" for not-sporty drivers...but
for them what have pressed it, it's the best est.
(best establishment for cornering gripping)
Appearance is one thing, important to many.
I want N.C. for the -handling gains-
grins,
r
for them what have pressed it, it's the best est.
(best establishment for cornering gripping)
Appearance is one thing, important to many.
I want N.C. for the -handling gains-
grins,
r
08-19-2005, 04:11 AM
#92
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08-19-2005, 05:07 AM
#93
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Originally Posted by squirrel
Stop Sean!
I know, I know, peeps are going to be mixing styles.
JDM w/ DTM, and a bunch of other stuff and its just going to kill the camber mod.
I always thought camber was for better handling, steering response, fitting wider wheels than would normally fit, and a specific theme.
Guess I was wrong. It'll get played out like the halo/projector headlihgts. Time to take those off also.
Van's camber plates are nice though, and 886motorwerx will have them in stock shortly also.
I know, I know, peeps are going to be mixing styles.
JDM w/ DTM, and a bunch of other stuff and its just going to kill the camber mod.
I always thought camber was for better handling, steering response, fitting wider wheels than would normally fit, and a specific theme.
Guess I was wrong. It'll get played out like the halo/projector headlihgts. Time to take those off also.
Van's camber plates are nice though, and 886motorwerx will have them in stock shortly also.
I hope I'm not acting offensive here, the problem with US market is, the parts options are very very limited and when something hits the market people got no choice but buy it even if its only for look. I know Van and I know One Ton Garage carries the best product in their line, and I also have bought parts from them before so this had nothing to do with them, but the only thing that I hope would not happen is, seeing these shims like type R badges on civics , but hey again the famous word of all "to each his own" JDMP
08-19-2005, 05:44 AM
#96
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i just wanted to know so some peeps that are not sure if they should get these have some idea of what they are meant for.
-but the only thing that I hope would not happen is, seeing these shims like type R badges on civics...
i don't think you can compare a badge to something that actually serves a purpose.
but to each his own!!
-but the only thing that I hope would not happen is, seeing these shims like type R badges on civics...
i don't think you can compare a badge to something that actually serves a purpose.
but to each his own!!
08-19-2005, 11:44 AM
#97
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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they are meant for purchase and install
just like any part
but unlike any other part
these are designed by the Magik Man Van
style and taste are beliefs and choices we all make
so these are for whomever wants them (DECENT PRICE TOO!)
just like any part
but unlike any other part
these are designed by the Magik Man Van
style and taste are beliefs and choices we all make
so these are for whomever wants them (DECENT PRICE TOO!)
08-19-2005, 02:12 PM
#98
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Okay, the gripe from me is people buy parts for their cars because that is all there is. Anyone can use the camber shims. I just think it looks dumb unless you have at ridiculously wide wheels and low offsets. To buy them and run them with your +38 offset and TRD springs doesn't make any sense. Although my opinion on this matter may not make sense to some or some may feel obliged to flame me for this go ahead. It's fine. Like some have said, the right profile and bodykit with wicked camber makes for a badass looking car. this is not a fad, but more a neccesity for some people that just so happens to look cool. These plates have not been designed to make a car "handle" better so to speak. It's a part of wagon tuning that a few of us here understand and now there is an alternative to looking to Japan for these parts.
08-19-2005, 03:04 PM
#100
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but it won't handle better
the spacer plates (if installed) will create MORE understeer on an otherwise correctly aligned vehicle
these camber shims will create even more understeer
only widening the front track and adding aggressive camber (4or5degrees) will return the vehicle to neutral(ish) steering
any other components will better/worsen either situation
just get ready to flame me for 3degrees of camber with 16x7's
but i can already out corner most cars that have tried me
this will merely insure my dominance on lonely roads in the wee hours of the morning
the spacer plates (if installed) will create MORE understeer on an otherwise correctly aligned vehicle
these camber shims will create even more understeer
only widening the front track and adding aggressive camber (4or5degrees) will return the vehicle to neutral(ish) steering
any other components will better/worsen either situation
just get ready to flame me for 3degrees of camber with 16x7's
but i can already out corner most cars that have tried me
this will merely insure my dominance on lonely roads in the wee hours of the morning