OTG neg camber plates!!! Finally
08-19-2005, 04:30 PM
#101
Banned
SL Member
Team N.V.S.
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: 886motorwerx
Posts: 4,770
As others have stated, some will buy because a part was released and they want ot be the first to have it installed.
Some buy parts becasue they are following a specifc theme and want a specific flow to their ride.
I have camber, why? Because I needed it to fit the 8.5s in the rear and didn't want to raise my car. And the camber up front increased my steering response on those spirited twisty roads that are found in some of the hills near where I live. I also ran front camber on my Celicas when I was auto-x'ing back in the day.
But as Jim and Sean stated, if you are running 7 inch wide wheels, +38 offset, and don't have the drop, it won't fit a specific theme. Mixing of themes has no flow.
But as Sean said, to each his own.
BUT, VAN and One Ton Garge make excellent products, always have, always will. I had his rear shims on, and only replaced them because I needed camber to run my current set-up. I will be stocking his product also.
Some buy parts becasue they are following a specifc theme and want a specific flow to their ride.
I have camber, why? Because I needed it to fit the 8.5s in the rear and didn't want to raise my car. And the camber up front increased my steering response on those spirited twisty roads that are found in some of the hills near where I live. I also ran front camber on my Celicas when I was auto-x'ing back in the day.
But as Jim and Sean stated, if you are running 7 inch wide wheels, +38 offset, and don't have the drop, it won't fit a specific theme. Mixing of themes has no flow.
But as Sean said, to each his own.
BUT, VAN and One Ton Garge make excellent products, always have, always will. I had his rear shims on, and only replaced them because I needed camber to run my current set-up. I will be stocking his product also.
08-19-2005, 05:05 PM
#104
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,834
Originally Posted by squirrel
..But as Jim and Sean stated, if you are running 7 inch wide wheels, +38 offset, and don't have the drop, it won't fit a specific theme. Mixing of themes has no flow..
Now, I do not do it for "art" or flow, but that's my choice, sure.
Hell, I am so unstyle-slaved as to have yellow painted plastic wheel covers
on shorty 15" F1 tires!
When I put on Van's camber plates it's to put a bit of camber into these small wheels -along with a touch of toe OUT and this is for the slight or moderate cornering grip improvement I'll surely gain.
See, according to my understanding, when the car body rolls during hard cornering
the newly cambered outside rear tire now tends to grip even better as TIRE now going
more nearly vertical during the body roll. More grip power now, right?
And the slight, presumed Toe OUT angle helps to swing the rear out into the turn and so -aids towards OVER steer.
Now guys, if I'm all wet on the basic physics here please correct me. I'm thinking aloud, not 'teaching' anyone but myself.
thanks!
All opinions go into the PowerJuicers of our bwains. Spit out the seeds and eat the pulp.
addendum: heck, these plates are aluminum. If I want more or less toe out than Van provides then I could EZ'ly hand lap the plates on a sandpaper on glass to get whatever Camber and Toe combination that works best and looks best for me. I have micrometers and dial calipers, etc.
08-19-2005, 05:13 PM
#105
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,834
direct copy and paste from Precision Muffler.com's page.
http://www.precisionmuffler.com/id116.htm
GO there to order.
I put the descriptive here to be sure all read about it
OneTonGarage Camber Plates
The OneTonGarage camber kit will allow people to achieve the look of additional negative camber , while minimizing the amount of tire wear they would normally experience from any other negative camber setup. Figure the amount of money you save on not having to replace your tires as often will more than make up for any price difference between the OTG camber shims and any other ones out there.
The Scion's rear beam suspension design allows the rear tires to automatically toe-in upon travel. What this means is that as your car goes over bumps, and your rear wheels go up, their camber and toe alignments go in.
Lowering the car increases the static camber and toe, so if you get your alignment checked, you will find that your camber and toe will be a bit greater than stock specs (assuming all you've done is lowered the car). Now when you add additional negative camber, you exacerbate the problem that the toe alignment creates, because as the suspension moves, toe is also increasing, but by an even greater amount now because of the additional camber.
Now negative camber alone usually does not kill tires quickly, but it's the combination of "bad" camber and bad toe that will do your tire tread in in no time. And in the case of the Scions, when you add more negative camber, you're adding a lot more toe, and that's why some folks who've run some of the other aftermarket rear camber kits have experienced a little more tire wear than usual.
comments and questions I have:
If this is true then the cornering roll of the body puts the outside rear wheel into a loaded condition tending to understeer the car. This is not conducive to the best cornering.
Again, I would like to remind all that if a wheel is cambered it generates a constant steering force of its own -in the direction of the lean- of the wheel.
Therefore, I -presume- that Van has designed toe OUT into these plates to compenstate for the camber-steering effect.
This toe OUT will also minimize the tire wear otherwise normally assocated with visibly cambered wheels. They wear not so much because they are tilted, but becase, in the absence of compensatory toe in opposing direction to the lean,
the tire will be in constant state of scrubbing friction. And in cornering, too, an un-toed, negatively cambered wheel will exhibit even more understeer effect than the stock condition.... for this added reason that it's now got camber that leans the 'wrong' way for minimal scrubbing, and which -countersteers- the car's rear into MORE understeer and which -constantly wears tread unecessarily-.
IMO, compensatory toe out is important for an number of reasons to an N.C.'d wheel.
http://www.precisionmuffler.com/id116.htm
GO there to order.
I put the descriptive here to be sure all read about it
OneTonGarage Camber Plates
The OneTonGarage camber kit will allow people to achieve the look of additional negative camber , while minimizing the amount of tire wear they would normally experience from any other negative camber setup. Figure the amount of money you save on not having to replace your tires as often will more than make up for any price difference between the OTG camber shims and any other ones out there.
The Scion's rear beam suspension design allows the rear tires to automatically toe-in upon travel. What this means is that as your car goes over bumps, and your rear wheels go up, their camber and toe alignments go in.
Lowering the car increases the static camber and toe, so if you get your alignment checked, you will find that your camber and toe will be a bit greater than stock specs (assuming all you've done is lowered the car). Now when you add additional negative camber, you exacerbate the problem that the toe alignment creates, because as the suspension moves, toe is also increasing, but by an even greater amount now because of the additional camber.
Now negative camber alone usually does not kill tires quickly, but it's the combination of "bad" camber and bad toe that will do your tire tread in in no time. And in the case of the Scions, when you add more negative camber, you're adding a lot more toe, and that's why some folks who've run some of the other aftermarket rear camber kits have experienced a little more tire wear than usual.
The Scion's rear beam suspension design allows the rear tires to automatically toe-in upon travel. What this means is that as your car goes over bumps, and your rear wheels go up, their camber and toe alignments go in.
Again, I would like to remind all that if a wheel is cambered it generates a constant steering force of its own -in the direction of the lean- of the wheel.
Therefore, I -presume- that Van has designed toe OUT into these plates to compenstate for the camber-steering effect.
This toe OUT will also minimize the tire wear otherwise normally assocated with visibly cambered wheels. They wear not so much because they are tilted, but becase, in the absence of compensatory toe in opposing direction to the lean,
the tire will be in constant state of scrubbing friction. And in cornering, too, an un-toed, negatively cambered wheel will exhibit even more understeer effect than the stock condition.... for this added reason that it's now got camber that leans the 'wrong' way for minimal scrubbing, and which -countersteers- the car's rear into MORE understeer and which -constantly wears tread unecessarily-.
IMO, compensatory toe out is important for an number of reasons to an N.C.'d wheel.
08-19-2005, 05:26 PM
#107
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,834
ok, well imo each new page bears repetition of key data like that.
thanks!
I need to edit and clean up my spiel above for more clarity.
However, to newbies how have not encountered this talk before it all looks like gobbledy____. It really isn't but it was hard even for me to grasp years ago...
until I got out a bike tire and practiced rolling it with a hoop-push-stick.
This childs' play demonstrates well the -steering effect of camber-
The -neutralizing effect- of toe out here, is not so easily demonstrated.
Rolling a car by hand across a squeaky clean garage floor can tell much about
the alignment and esp, the toe in/out optimization; both by -relative ease of the rolling and by
that squeaking of tire rubber. Any squeak is -useless scrub-. SO! if you roll easy
by hand and adjust things for minimum tire squeek then.. your toe comps front and rear
are
prolly
POIFECT
(true, and yes it is a good test and a good way to feel your car instead of working by mere numbers)
thanks!
I need to edit and clean up my spiel above for more clarity.
However, to newbies how have not encountered this talk before it all looks like gobbledy____. It really isn't but it was hard even for me to grasp years ago...
until I got out a bike tire and practiced rolling it with a hoop-push-stick.
This childs' play demonstrates well the -steering effect of camber-
The -neutralizing effect- of toe out here, is not so easily demonstrated.
Rolling a car by hand across a squeaky clean garage floor can tell much about
the alignment and esp, the toe in/out optimization; both by -relative ease of the rolling and by
that squeaking of tire rubber. Any squeak is -useless scrub-. SO! if you roll easy
by hand and adjust things for minimum tire squeek then.. your toe comps front and rear
are
prolly
POIFECT
(true, and yes it is a good test and a good way to feel your car instead of working by mere numbers)
08-19-2005, 05:27 PM
#108
Banned
SL Member
Team N.V.S.
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: 886motorwerx
Posts: 4,770
But, I have a different toe up front since I am also running neg camber up front. I run different toe settings according to whether I have the 17s or 18s on my xB.
Its just something I do as I have found the settings are what works best for me and my driving style.
Its easy enuff to do if you have access to an alignment rack.
Its just something I do as I have found the settings are what works best for me and my driving style.
Its easy enuff to do if you have access to an alignment rack.
08-19-2005, 05:30 PM
#109
Banned
SL Member
Team N.V.S.
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: 886motorwerx
Posts: 4,770
Van's rear camber plate is correcting the toe IN problem by toe-ing OUT. The toe IN problem varies from car to car depending on drop also. I found that out when I was R&Ding some rear toe correction shims.
08-19-2005, 05:39 PM
#111
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,834
Originally Posted by squirrel
Van's rear camber plate is correcting the toe IN problem by toe-ing OUT. The toe IN problem varies from car to car depending on drop also. I found that out when I was R&Ding some rear toe correction shims.
So, you all see, Van is ahead of me and what I say is what he does by his own innate understandings. I work only in my own words, coming from a MODEL T background. I drove one for daily, sole transport for years, and knew it inside and out.
Again, Model T had -this same amount of camber as Van's plates are to make-
Only difference, Model T, again, was positively cambered for its own good reasons. The tops of the 30 inch tall, skinny tires are about 1.5 inches farther apart than at the bottom of the tires. It sure looks funny on an old car... but -was done to ease the otherwise heavy steering effort- (not for "handling" or kooky appearance).
it's all good, just know what and why you're doin' it or you uh,,,,,as Brian says in his siggy line:
car clubs are for followers
08-20-2005, 05:27 AM
#114
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,834
Originally Posted by Stylis
SciFly your order has been received and will be shipped out! :D
Originally Posted by squirrel
I measure toe the old fashion way when I don't have the alignment rack. With a tape measure. Kind of crude but it worked on the Formula Ford.
Therefore, my T procedure was to
- Chalk a spot on the inside of each tire sidwall, exactly opposite each other. 3 and 9 PM, respectively.
-take a stick of thin wooden molding. Point its end. Make another stick of short length, pointed, to overlap and lay on the longer stick and -use this pair as a telescoping rod to span between the spots. Mark with a pencil across the long molding at the inside end of the short stick (??) You see what I mean?
Now, rotate the tires one half turn by rolling the car and -measure again and mark and you get a very precise, graphic measurement of the toe. And by this method allow for any possible lateral runouts in either or both tires/wheels.
If I tried to do this by tape measure then I never could get repeatable measurements. I was toeing in the T's front wheels by about 3/16 to 1/4" as I recall. This would be much less with the smaller wheels of a Scion of course!
However, again, it's so easy to to a roll/squeak test if you have a flat, Futured floor that I am curious to try this latter method and not do so much with tape or stick. Just my pref and curiosity now well explained,
/////// uh, nope!
08-20-2005, 05:39 AM
#115
Banned
SL Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Posts: 2,490
hmmmm
i was thinking about it... but the way it looks to me, theyre gonna be "played out" so soon itll be boring to have camber
okay thats an exaggeration but you know what i mean. i was really interested when rumors were around that he might limit them. I thought that would be cool.
Now with everyone getting them I dont know. It would go well with my theme, but I cant justify spending 170 on something the guy with 17x7 with 40 offset has. it just throws me off. and im not bagging on anyone here, props to all those that modify their ride and do what they can. im just afraid its going to be overdone on cars that frankly dont need it. i believe there is a certain time and certian ride meant for camber.
scott
i was thinking about it... but the way it looks to me, theyre gonna be "played out" so soon itll be boring to have camber
okay thats an exaggeration but you know what i mean. i was really interested when rumors were around that he might limit them. I thought that would be cool.
Now with everyone getting them I dont know. It would go well with my theme, but I cant justify spending 170 on something the guy with 17x7 with 40 offset has. it just throws me off. and im not bagging on anyone here, props to all those that modify their ride and do what they can. im just afraid its going to be overdone on cars that frankly dont need it. i believe there is a certain time and certian ride meant for camber.
scott
08-20-2005, 07:42 PM
#117
Senior Member
SL Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: HELLO! :)
Posts: 739
Originally Posted by hotbox05
i don't want to sound liek a downer but bboxd that isnt 4 inch drop all the way around. i sit that low up front and am at an approximate 3.25 inch drop.
I think thats a little lower then 4." I gotta do a little more work and i should elimante all rubbing. Im also cambered in the front now. Thanks Sean (MyBox)!!
08-20-2005, 09:54 PM
#118
Banned
SL Member
Team N.V.S.
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: 886motorwerx
Posts: 4,770
Originally Posted by bBOXD
Originally Posted by hotbox05
i don't want to sound liek a downer but bboxd that isnt 4 inch drop all the way around. i sit that low up front and am at an approximate 3.25 inch drop.
I think thats a little lower then 4." I gotta do a little more work and i should elimante all rubbing. Im also cambered in the front now. Thanks Sean (MyBox)!!
Mark IS lower than me. I saw it last night.
It has got to be at least a 4 inch drop.
08-21-2005, 09:30 AM
#119
Guest
Posts: n/a
08-21-2005, 06:49 PM
#120
Banned
SL Member
Team N.V.S.
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Scinergy
Scion Evolution
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: 886motorwerx
Posts: 4,770
Say what you will, but the camber shims were not really made for performance anyway.
It must be a styling thing them.
No way having front camber or rear camber will help increase the tire contact patch while dealing w/ cornering, and the handling characteristics of the car. I always thought better handling came with having a good contact patch from the tires.
I guess I was wrong again. Sorry to give out misinformation.
