slotted rotors???
01-24-2006, 10:35 AM
#21
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Originally Posted by BrianxB
Originally Posted by dgHotLava
to all the haters of BBK's....do you know what 'swept area' is?
the only way to increase this is with a BBK.
sure, all of the other ideas will help breaking. they are still nothing compared to a BBK.
i applaud you for increasing the performance of your car. even the cheaper routes will give you noticable increases.
good luck with your project.
the only way to increase this is with a BBK.
sure, all of the other ideas will help breaking. they are still nothing compared to a BBK.
i applaud you for increasing the performance of your car. even the cheaper routes will give you noticable increases.
good luck with your project.
BBKs are a waste.
but being able to outstop anything else on the road is very nice. going very deep into the corners before touching the brakes.
i've surprised many porsche and corvette people.
oh, before you try to bring it up, it will add to the unsprung weight too.
01-24-2006, 04:12 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by BrianxB
Originally Posted by dgHotLava
to all the haters of BBK's....do you know what 'swept area' is?
the only way to increase this is with a BBK.
sure, all of the other ideas will help breaking. they are still nothing compared to a BBK.
i applaud you for increasing the performance of your car. even the cheaper routes will give you noticable increases.
good luck with your project.
the only way to increase this is with a BBK.
sure, all of the other ideas will help breaking. they are still nothing compared to a BBK.
i applaud you for increasing the performance of your car. even the cheaper routes will give you noticable increases.
good luck with your project.
BBKs are a waste.
01-24-2006, 04:39 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by dgHotLava
Originally Posted by BrianxB
Originally Posted by dgHotLava
to all the haters of BBK's....do you know what 'swept area' is?
the only way to increase this is with a BBK.
sure, all of the other ideas will help breaking. they are still nothing compared to a BBK.
i applaud you for increasing the performance of your car. even the cheaper routes will give you noticable increases.
good luck with your project.
the only way to increase this is with a BBK.
sure, all of the other ideas will help breaking. they are still nothing compared to a BBK.
i applaud you for increasing the performance of your car. even the cheaper routes will give you noticable increases.
good luck with your project.
BBKs are a waste.
but being able to outstop anything else on the road is very nice. going very deep into the corners before touching the brakes.
i've surprised many porsche and corvette people.
oh, before you try to bring it up, it will add to the unsprung weight too.
"Are you saying that because of the loss in HP your car can no longer get up to speed or go fast enough to justify stopping quickly?"
No. What Im saying is the cost factor/loss of HP involved with buying a BBK is not enough to offset the fact that I can achieve the same results with cheaper, less expensive parts.
01-24-2006, 05:22 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by BrianxB
I had a similiar setup on my boosted hatch. We kept wondering why I lost an additional 10 hp on the dyno after changing plugs and putting in a new ignition system. The answer? The stupid BBK that I put on. A week later it was on Ebay.
"Are you saying that because of the loss in HP your car can no longer get up to speed or go fast enough to justify stopping quickly?"
No. What Im saying is the cost factor/loss of HP involved with buying a BBK is not enough to offset the fact that I can achieve the same results with cheaper, less expensive parts.
"Are you saying that because of the loss in HP your car can no longer get up to speed or go fast enough to justify stopping quickly?"
No. What Im saying is the cost factor/loss of HP involved with buying a BBK is not enough to offset the fact that I can achieve the same results with cheaper, less expensive parts.
Wouldn't the smaller rotor you went back to get hotter, sooner, than a larger rotor would, causing brakes to fade earlier rather than later(this is assuming a track situation)?
Of course, none of this makes any difference on the street, brakes will never get that hot, but apparently you are a track racer and I would think that on a road course where brakes REALLY get tested and where braking is just as important as going fast, that you wouldn't necassarily want cheaper, less expensive parts as far as your brakes were concerned.
I should also add, to be fair, that I do have a BBK, but I'm no racer(merely an enthusiast). I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or the other, to each his own. Mine are purely for looks but do feel as though I can stop much faster than stock did.
01-24-2006, 05:46 PM
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In my opinion what it boils down to is preference. I honestly think the only real justification for a big brake kit on an xB is aesthetics. If you prefer the look great. But with as light as our cars are you can achieve virtually the same results as a "BBK" with less money using upgraded stock diameter parts.
Until I see empirical evidence proving otherwise, I will never believe you will see anything more than a marginal difference in braking performance between an xB with a full BBK and an xB with upgraded components. New front rotors, good pads, better brake fluid and steel braided lines will make all the difference an xB will ever need. Yes, even for track conditions.
And when you upgrade your stock components instead of investing in a BBK you can continue to run smaller diameter, lightweight wheels. This will help put power to the ground, increase acceleration, and reduce unsprung weight. These are the three major drawbacks to a big brake kit. And while I would agree on larger, higher horsepower cars the big brake kits are completely justified, I just don't see that from a performance standpoint in the xB. When you are dealing with only 100 horsepower, every single one counts. The loss seen by a BBK just can't be justified by the increased brake performance. Especially when there are other alternatives out there.
Now, with all of that said, I like big brake kits. I will eventually be doing one on my project Dakota. In that application, it would be justified. And if you are getting a big brake kit for the looks on your xB, go for it! I think they look really nice behind a big open set of wheels. Just don't come in here and try to fool yourself and others into thinking that the thousands of additional dollars you spent would be justified by a significant increase in braking performance compared to less expensive brake upgrades.
Until I see empirical evidence proving otherwise, I will never believe you will see anything more than a marginal difference in braking performance between an xB with a full BBK and an xB with upgraded components. New front rotors, good pads, better brake fluid and steel braided lines will make all the difference an xB will ever need. Yes, even for track conditions.
And when you upgrade your stock components instead of investing in a BBK you can continue to run smaller diameter, lightweight wheels. This will help put power to the ground, increase acceleration, and reduce unsprung weight. These are the three major drawbacks to a big brake kit. And while I would agree on larger, higher horsepower cars the big brake kits are completely justified, I just don't see that from a performance standpoint in the xB. When you are dealing with only 100 horsepower, every single one counts. The loss seen by a BBK just can't be justified by the increased brake performance. Especially when there are other alternatives out there.
Now, with all of that said, I like big brake kits. I will eventually be doing one on my project Dakota. In that application, it would be justified. And if you are getting a big brake kit for the looks on your xB, go for it! I think they look really nice behind a big open set of wheels. Just don't come in here and try to fool yourself and others into thinking that the thousands of additional dollars you spent would be justified by a significant increase in braking performance compared to less expensive brake upgrades.
01-24-2006, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by trebor
Originally Posted by BrianxB
I had a similiar setup on my boosted hatch. We kept wondering why I lost an additional 10 hp on the dyno after changing plugs and putting in a new ignition system. The answer? The stupid BBK that I put on. A week later it was on Ebay.
"Are you saying that because of the loss in HP your car can no longer get up to speed or go fast enough to justify stopping quickly?"
No. What Im saying is the cost factor/loss of HP involved with buying a BBK is not enough to offset the fact that I can achieve the same results with cheaper, less expensive parts.
"Are you saying that because of the loss in HP your car can no longer get up to speed or go fast enough to justify stopping quickly?"
No. What Im saying is the cost factor/loss of HP involved with buying a BBK is not enough to offset the fact that I can achieve the same results with cheaper, less expensive parts.
Wouldn't the smaller rotor you went back to get hotter, sooner, than a larger rotor would, causing brakes to fade earlier rather than later(this is assuming a track situation)?
Of course, none of this makes any difference on the street, brakes will never get that hot, but apparently you are a track racer and I would think that on a road course where brakes REALLY get tested and where braking is just as important as going fast, that you wouldn't necassarily want cheaper, less expensive parts as far as your brakes were concerned.
I should also add, to be fair, that I do have a BBK, but I'm no racer(merely an enthusiast). I'm not trying to sway anyone one way or the other, to each his own. Mine are purely for looks but do feel as though I can stop much faster than stock did.
if you have a situation where all you need is speed (1/4 mile) do not get the BBK.
this is the only situation where 10HP will cost you.
if you need to turn while doing your sport, better brakes will let you carry more speed, deeper into the turns. if a BBK costs you that much HP it was the wrong kit.
the smaller rotor might not heat up any faster than a BBK, but the BBK's usually have vented rotors to disapate the heat better.
as for the cheaper route. i think slotted rotors and aggressive pads are a good start. def. better than stock.
01-24-2006, 06:19 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by dgHotLava
i'll add my .02 to this, but it is just my views on it.
if you have a situation where all you need is speed (1/4 mile) do not get the BBK.
this is the only situation where 10HP will cost you.
if you need to turn while doing your sport, better brakes will let you carry more speed, deeper into the turns. if a BBK costs you that much HP it was the wrong kit.
the smaller rotor might not heat up any faster than a BBK, but the BBK's usually have vented rotors to disapate the heat better.
as for the cheaper route. i think slotted rotors and aggressive pads are a good start. def. better than stock.
if you have a situation where all you need is speed (1/4 mile) do not get the BBK.
this is the only situation where 10HP will cost you.
if you need to turn while doing your sport, better brakes will let you carry more speed, deeper into the turns. if a BBK costs you that much HP it was the wrong kit.
the smaller rotor might not heat up any faster than a BBK, but the BBK's usually have vented rotors to disapate the heat better.
as for the cheaper route. i think slotted rotors and aggressive pads are a good start. def. better than stock.
I can easily agree that by only upgrading fluid, pads and using slotted rotors that there will naturally be a perfomance increase, I just don't see how it could equall any good BBKs that are generally designed for racing purposes.
01-24-2006, 10:47 PM
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On a larger heavier car I think you would see a pretty significant difference between upgrading parts using the stock diameter rotor vs. a bbk. But with as light as our cars are, they do not require that much braking force. Our cars are so light it doesn't take much at all to stop them. I mean just look at how small our stock rotors are, and the fact that we have rear drums.
I really don't see the performance gain offered by a bbk as worth the money compared to the performance gain that can be found through the other upgrades discussed.
I really don't see the performance gain offered by a bbk as worth the money compared to the performance gain that can be found through the other upgrades discussed.
01-24-2006, 11:04 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by trebor
Originally Posted by dgHotLava
i'll add my .02 to this, but it is just my views on it.
if you have a situation where all you need is speed (1/4 mile) do not get the BBK.
this is the only situation where 10HP will cost you.
if you need to turn while doing your sport, better brakes will let you carry more speed, deeper into the turns. if a BBK costs you that much HP it was the wrong kit.
the smaller rotor might not heat up any faster than a BBK, but the BBK's usually have vented rotors to disapate the heat better.
as for the cheaper route. i think slotted rotors and aggressive pads are a good start. def. better than stock.
if you have a situation where all you need is speed (1/4 mile) do not get the BBK.
this is the only situation where 10HP will cost you.
if you need to turn while doing your sport, better brakes will let you carry more speed, deeper into the turns. if a BBK costs you that much HP it was the wrong kit.
the smaller rotor might not heat up any faster than a BBK, but the BBK's usually have vented rotors to disapate the heat better.
as for the cheaper route. i think slotted rotors and aggressive pads are a good start. def. better than stock.
I can easily agree that by only upgrading fluid, pads and using slotted rotors that there will naturally be a perfomance increase, I just don't see how it could equall any good BBKs that are generally designed for racing purposes.
i agree with you, i don't think they are even close in performance.
01-24-2006, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by RTon20s
On a larger heavier car I think you would see a pretty significant difference between upgrading parts using the stock diameter rotor vs. a bbk. But with as light as our cars are, they do not require that much braking force. Our cars are so light it doesn't take much at all to stop them. I mean just look at how small our stock rotors are, and the fact that we have rear drums.
I really don't see the performance gain offered by a bbk as worth the money compared to the performance gain that can be found through the other upgrades discussed.
I really don't see the performance gain offered by a bbk as worth the money compared to the performance gain that can be found through the other upgrades discussed.
they actually perform better than rotors. have you ever seen a tractor trailer using disk brakes??? they have to stop much more weight than any car and would need the most effective system. thus drums...
weither it is worth the money, depends on the cost.
01-25-2006, 11:13 AM
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In defense of my "cheaper braking system". I did not want to lose my torque, so I kept my 16x7 inch 5Zigen FN01R-C rims. Most if not all BBK's require you to have atleast a 17 inch rims to have enough clearence for their big brake kit. So It wasnt that I wanted to save money, it that I wanted to keep my power. I've been told that having larger rims decreases your stopping power, throw in the equation of losing power due to the larger rim, it's a deciding factor for me since all i do when I race is play with throttle control and trail brake into apexes. Also Slotted rotors will never have brake fade. My rotors were glowing red, and I felt no difference. Slotted and cross drilled rotors are also known to warp/crack a lot easier/faster because its inconsistent pattern in materieal.
01-25-2006, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RTon20s
On a larger heavier car I think you would see a pretty significant difference between upgrading parts using the stock diameter rotor vs. a bbk. But with as light as our cars are, they do not require that much braking force. Our cars are so light it doesn't take much at all to stop them. I mean just look at how small our stock rotors are, and the fact that we have rear drums.
I really don't see the performance gain offered by a bbk as worth the money compared to the performance gain that can be found through the other upgrades discussed.
I really don't see the performance gain offered by a bbk as worth the money compared to the performance gain that can be found through the other upgrades discussed.
As to whether it is worth the money or not, that's up to the buyer. Do I think BBKs are overpriced?....YOU BET!!! But am I glad that I spent the money for mine?...ABSOLUTELY!!! They just LOOK so cool and as an added bonus, I can outbrake nearly everything on the road. :D That's assuming everyone on the road was having a braking competition.
If your trying to maximise your racing dollars then the BBK may not be for you. No biggie.
01-25-2006, 06:10 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by dgHotLava
the fact that we have rear drums means nothing....
they actually perform better than rotors. have you ever seen a tractor trailer using disk brakes??? they have to stop much more weight than any car and would need the most effective system. thus drums...
weither it is worth the money, depends on the cost.
they actually perform better than rotors. have you ever seen a tractor trailer using disk brakes??? they have to stop much more weight than any car and would need the most effective system. thus drums...
weither it is worth the money, depends on the cost.
. What you said isn't exactly true. The reason trucks are still using drums has more to do with cost more than anything, as well as the emergency braking system design, and the R & D it would take to design a heavy duty caliper system. How would you ever get those pistons pushed out on the caliper reliably using air instead of brake fluid?. But I doubt they would ever switch over to a rotor, the drums do work just fine as they have since they were first designed. After all, most tractor/trailer combos have five axles worth of brakes. Thats 20 brake shoes total!!! 
The trucking industry is all about the bottom line and is very slow to upgrade, especially on a proven system that already works good enough(not necessarily better than a rotor/caliper system though). VERY FEW trucks even have self-canceling turn signals now, and automatic transmissions are still relatively new to trucking too. Incase you havent guessed yet, I'm a truck driver.
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