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For Xb's with Air Ride!
11-21-2005, 08:49 PM
#1
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For Xb's with Air Ride!
Topic The XB (FB or FBSS)
The Discussion.. Anyone running FBSS and has body alignment issues?
After Almost a Year, I am Started to notice the rear doors are slowly starting to stick out near the bottom from the body lines.. Anyone else noticing this? I love the Side-2-Side action but I beleive its slowly warping the box.
Now in My situation I only use side to side when riding around or showing off.. I never leave the box dumped to one side at shows or while parking, So its not like im leaving unneeded stress on the body for long periods of time..
What are your thoughts? I am really considereing dropping back to 4 valves.
Now I already know the difference between running 4 or 8 valves as far as load is concerned, Im mainly itnerested to see who is running what and for the FBSS boxs are they noticing slight differences in body lines.
The Discussion.. Anyone running FBSS and has body alignment issues?
After Almost a Year, I am Started to notice the rear doors are slowly starting to stick out near the bottom from the body lines.. Anyone else noticing this? I love the Side-2-Side action but I beleive its slowly warping the box.
Now in My situation I only use side to side when riding around or showing off.. I never leave the box dumped to one side at shows or while parking, So its not like im leaving unneeded stress on the body for long periods of time..
What are your thoughts? I am really considereing dropping back to 4 valves.
Now I already know the difference between running 4 or 8 valves as far as load is concerned, Im mainly itnerested to see who is running what and for the FBSS boxs are they noticing slight differences in body lines.
11-21-2005, 09:38 PM
#2
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Well... I could care less about side to side, but 8 valves is the only way to go as far as I am concerned. If for nothing else than to prevent side to side air transfer when driving.
If you are truly concerned about boy flex, there are steps you can take to prevent it. First and foremost would be bracing. Luckily this is a bolt on affair with the xB. Get yourself a good strut tower brace for the front and a shock tower brace for the rear. That should help eliminate some of the flex.
If that isn't enough, begin looking into a full roll cage. As ridiculous as this may sound, it may be your only option if you insist on playing with your sides. Yes, even if it is only at shows.
When the wife's box is bagged, it will have 8 valves. And in the beginning it won't have any additional bracing. Why? Because the only time either of us will be hitting "sides" is to adjust the vehicle to make it level.
There you have my 2 cents.
If you are truly concerned about boy flex, there are steps you can take to prevent it. First and foremost would be bracing. Luckily this is a bolt on affair with the xB. Get yourself a good strut tower brace for the front and a shock tower brace for the rear. That should help eliminate some of the flex.
If that isn't enough, begin looking into a full roll cage. As ridiculous as this may sound, it may be your only option if you insist on playing with your sides. Yes, even if it is only at shows.
When the wife's box is bagged, it will have 8 valves. And in the beginning it won't have any additional bracing. Why? Because the only time either of us will be hitting "sides" is to adjust the vehicle to make it level.
There you have my 2 cents.
11-22-2005, 02:50 AM
#4
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I run 8 valves and hit side to side once in a while and haven't had any problems.
But sticking doors sound more like a front to back chassis problem(even if its that major, maybe doors just need adjusted). That doesn't sound like a problem from side to side to me. More like the chassis saggin in the middle between the tires, at the B pillar. But I'd think warp bad enough to cause a door to stick out would cause sheet metal to noticable warp(ie: roof?). Door gaps would be getting weird too, if its sticking out at the bottom, does it sink in at the top?
BTW You don't run a huge sunroof or a giant wall of subs in the back do you?
But sticking doors sound more like a front to back chassis problem(even if its that major, maybe doors just need adjusted). That doesn't sound like a problem from side to side to me. More like the chassis saggin in the middle between the tires, at the B pillar. But I'd think warp bad enough to cause a door to stick out would cause sheet metal to noticable warp(ie: roof?). Door gaps would be getting weird too, if its sticking out at the bottom, does it sink in at the top?
BTW You don't run a huge sunroof or a giant wall of subs in the back do you?
11-23-2005, 07:50 AM
#6
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As I've said in another Airride post, the bags for FB have been on for over 35000 miles. Daily driven, lots of shows. Back and forth to Cali a few times as well. No door gaps, no weird flexing. No strut towers either. Its been driven everyway possible as well. I dont think the gaps are from FB bags.
11-23-2005, 03:12 PM
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The reality is having 8 valves (FBSS) installed shouldn't cause the conditions the original poster is seeing either. Unless of course the vehicle is being thoroughly abused. In which case, I wouldn't be surprised to see a unibody car as light as an xB begin to flex.
The trade offs of cost savings with running 4 valves just aren't worth it to me. Spending an extra $120-$150 dollars to prevent side to side air transfer and poor handling is completely worth it. I don't think I could ever conceive of running only 4 valves on a complete air suspension installation. Not even on a show only vehicle.
The trade offs of cost savings with running 4 valves just aren't worth it to me. Spending an extra $120-$150 dollars to prevent side to side air transfer and poor handling is completely worth it. I don't think I could ever conceive of running only 4 valves on a complete air suspension installation. Not even on a show only vehicle.
11-23-2005, 09:09 PM
#8
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I still dont know why people think you get bad handling with only 4 valves. Once the airride went on the xB is way more sturdy. I get no noticable shifting or air transfer when cornering. The increase in traction was well noticed as well. I just think this arguement of air transfer is over done. My previous daily driver was a built first gen Toyota Mr2 that was made for twisty roads. This xB doesnt handle as well as that mid engined car but it definately handles its own. The only time I could claim some loss is on "s" curves when you shift the weight from a hard left to a hard right..but even then, it needs to be an extreme shift to notice.
I'm not convinced.
I'm not convinced.
11-23-2005, 10:09 PM
#9
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You don't have to be convinced. It really doesn't matter. But I have been dealing with pneumatic suspension systems since about '97. The fact is, with only 4 valves you get side to side air transfer. That essentially means your load rating on the air springs mean squat.
The affect this transfer can have on a vehicle is magnified as you use larger diameter air line. The smaller the airline, the slower the air can transfer from one bag to another. So running smaller air line can help. The reality though, is using only 4 valves kind of defeats the purpose of having a real suspension at all. If all you want to do is go up and down, you might as well go buy hydraulics.
The affect this transfer can have on a vehicle is magnified as you use larger diameter air line. The smaller the airline, the slower the air can transfer from one bag to another. So running smaller air line can help. The reality though, is using only 4 valves kind of defeats the purpose of having a real suspension at all. If all you want to do is go up and down, you might as well go buy hydraulics.
11-24-2005, 06:40 AM
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The other thing I notice on the xB...I have a total of 2psi changes for full up and full down. 2psi shifting from one side of the xB to the other. That 2psi is minimal on the impact of suspension travel on our car. I don't doubt you RT for other heavier vehicles but I dont think a MAXIMUM of 2 psi shifting is going to make an impact on our vehicle. Plus, our shocks/struts still take the majority of the load, as well as sway bars and strut bars. If there is any shifting that could be impactful on the handling of scion xB's its negated with other suspension components.
11-25-2005, 05:11 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by Spider13
I run 8 valves and hit side to side once in a while and haven't had any problems.
But sticking doors sound more like a front to back chassis problem(even if its that major, maybe doors just need adjusted). That doesn't sound like a problem from side to side to me. More like the chassis saggin in the middle between the tires, at the B pillar. But I'd think warp bad enough to cause a door to stick out would cause sheet metal to noticable warp(ie: roof?). Door gaps would be getting weird too, if its sticking out at the bottom, does it sink in at the top?
BTW You don't run a huge sunroof or a giant wall of subs in the back do you?
But sticking doors sound more like a front to back chassis problem(even if its that major, maybe doors just need adjusted). That doesn't sound like a problem from side to side to me. More like the chassis saggin in the middle between the tires, at the B pillar. But I'd think warp bad enough to cause a door to stick out would cause sheet metal to noticable warp(ie: roof?). Door gaps would be getting weird too, if its sticking out at the bottom, does it sink in at the top?
BTW You don't run a huge sunroof or a giant wall of subs in the back do you?
Nope No Subs or Sun roof
The Top of the Door is Sunk in while the bottom sticks out a little bit..
Its not a major issue I was just mainly seeing what others are running and there experiences..
I was just doing this to see what everyone else is running..
As far the Air Transfer issue I can easily run 8 valves and not have S2S..
The Air Transfer thing is not an issue here. so its not worth bickering over..
Thanks for everyone else's opnions and answers
11-25-2005, 10:05 PM
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it seemed like my doors started closing "differently" when I had air on for awhile. Ive been back to springs and now coilovers and it doesnt have any problems.. I did notice my doors closed differently when the car was dumped opposed to lifted...
11-28-2005, 04:11 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by wombat
The other thing I notice on the xB...I have a total of 2psi changes for full up and full down. 2psi shifting from one side of the xB to the other. That 2psi is minimal on the impact of suspension travel on our car. I don't doubt you RT for other heavier vehicles but I dont think a MAXIMUM of 2 psi shifting is going to make an impact on our vehicle. Plus, our shocks/struts still take the majority of the load, as well as sway bars and strut bars. If there is any shifting that could be impactful on the handling of scion xB's its negated with other suspension components.
So, I'll keep it as simple as this...
If you REALLY think that your struts and your sway bare have load carrying characteristics, I want you to try something for me. Let's just say we are testing out your theory. Go out to your xB, jack it up and remove the air bags. You can reinstall the struts without the air bags installed. Once you are done, take the car off of the jack stands.
Now, how much load carrying capacity do those struts and sway bar have? If you still aren't convinced, go ahead and take your car for a ride. (Note: I am not responsible if someone is actually foolish enough to try this.)
For the hundredth time, struts, shocks and sway bars have ZERO load carrying capacity.
11-28-2005, 11:23 PM
#17
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Sorry, I wasnt clear enough in my previous description.
When I said "majority of load" i meant the force applied at cornering. One strut compresses, while the other expands to balance out the force and keep the vehicle somewhat level. The sway bars act to keep suspension components level and balanced as well, keeping things from shifting. This is what I meant in my post.
I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to figure out why everyone believes f/b setups are so inferior when, with our car, its not that big of a deal because of weight issues(or lack there of).
The pressure difference of when the load changes isnt great enough to merit the air shifting from one side to the other to greatly effect the car's handling as much as some believe. Yes, it DOES affect it, but with a 2400lb box with the struts, swaybars, and the structural rigidity we have, I believe its a moot point in claiming that f/b is so much worse for corners/handling than f/b/s/s.
Now, speak about say, a truck with a solid axle, a caprice classic thats a pig for weight, or a semi truck that ways TONS, I believe the transfer of pressure between each bag could adversely affect handling.
Gravy? I hope i stated myself better this time!
Now, the one Positive thing about F/B/S/S bags that I WOULD like, is weight balancing. My front right bag fills a moment slower than the left, thus the passenger side is always a tad low. This means when i drive down the street in "low mode" the passenger side is always slightly lower. I figure thats why I have messed up this set up fenders 2 times already. :p It also means my headlights are slightly tweaked. Just another thing to adjust.
When I said "majority of load" i meant the force applied at cornering. One strut compresses, while the other expands to balance out the force and keep the vehicle somewhat level. The sway bars act to keep suspension components level and balanced as well, keeping things from shifting. This is what I meant in my post.
I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to figure out why everyone believes f/b setups are so inferior when, with our car, its not that big of a deal because of weight issues(or lack there of).
The pressure difference of when the load changes isnt great enough to merit the air shifting from one side to the other to greatly effect the car's handling as much as some believe. Yes, it DOES affect it, but with a 2400lb box with the struts, swaybars, and the structural rigidity we have, I believe its a moot point in claiming that f/b is so much worse for corners/handling than f/b/s/s.
Now, speak about say, a truck with a solid axle, a caprice classic thats a pig for weight, or a semi truck that ways TONS, I believe the transfer of pressure between each bag could adversely affect handling.
Gravy? I hope i stated myself better this time!
Now, the one Positive thing about F/B/S/S bags that I WOULD like, is weight balancing. My front right bag fills a moment slower than the left, thus the passenger side is always a tad low. This means when i drive down the street in "low mode" the passenger side is always slightly lower. I figure thats why I have messed up this set up fenders 2 times already. :p It also means my headlights are slightly tweaked. Just another thing to adjust.
11-29-2005, 05:33 AM
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your still implying that the struts and sway carry some sort of load handeling ability, that a strut will reach a point where its rebound will counteract the centrifugal forces applied during corning...other then slowing down and smoothing the transfer of weight side to side (or up and down) it will eventually reach full compression. As the vehicle corners and the strut compresses it offers very little rebound (ie load handeling) that is the coil or airsprings job.
Centrifugal force causes the vehicle to lean to the outside of the turn and in a FB setup eventually the strut and airspring will be fully compressed...where did that air go? it transfers to the inside bag...whereas a FBSS setup has the extra valving to block this transfer.
If i can lean on a strut and compress it I am sure a 2400lb box thrown into a sharp curve will make short order of it.
Your right with your comparison of vehicles with more mass amplifing this effect, but it is still present in any 4 valve setup.
Is a FB setup livalble? most definatley...but it doesn't offer the handling and stability of a 8 valve setup.
not flaming, not trying to be a d!ck...just couldnt sleep.
Centrifugal force causes the vehicle to lean to the outside of the turn and in a FB setup eventually the strut and airspring will be fully compressed...where did that air go? it transfers to the inside bag...whereas a FBSS setup has the extra valving to block this transfer.
If i can lean on a strut and compress it I am sure a 2400lb box thrown into a sharp curve will make short order of it.
Your right with your comparison of vehicles with more mass amplifing this effect, but it is still present in any 4 valve setup.
Is a FB setup livalble? most definatley...but it doesn't offer the handling and stability of a 8 valve setup.
not flaming, not trying to be a d!ck...just couldnt sleep.
11-29-2005, 06:41 AM
#19
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This is what I'm talking about.
Basically what I think is that under "regular" or "spirited" driving you should never hit full compression of your strut or air spring. When you do your screwed anyways.
ex: You've yanked your wheel hard one way at 100mph...assuming you got the xB to 100mph and decided this yank was needed.
Anyways, that pressure transfer of 2psi could make a difference in that "special" circumstance, but I dont think that circumstance is possible under "regular/spirited" driving.
I've never heard of hitting full strut compression with halfway decent struts on road use. MAYBE an off-camber hard right at 45+mph with fat people in the xB..but even then..
AirRide gave me the option of 5 way adjustables. They are adjusted to 4 (firmer) and I havent felt the strut bottom out. When that happens they need to be replaced anyways cause you have blown the strut or its used up anyways.
Heck, I think if you got some decent tires on the xB you would never even notice a difference in handling between a 4 valve and 8 valve system. The grip on the tires would be enough to compensate for the difference in pressure.
I'm with you Lance. Not flaming or whatever...Just discussing what I think.
I think the myth of a F/B setup being THAT MUCH worse than a F/B/S/S needs to be killed though. I agree that there is a difference, but its VERY minimal and wouldn't be noticable on daily drivers/spirited driving except under that "perfect cicumstance."
Basically what I think is that under "regular" or "spirited" driving you should never hit full compression of your strut or air spring. When you do your screwed anyways.
ex: You've yanked your wheel hard one way at 100mph...assuming you got the xB to 100mph and decided this yank was needed.
Anyways, that pressure transfer of 2psi could make a difference in that "special" circumstance, but I dont think that circumstance is possible under "regular/spirited" driving.
I've never heard of hitting full strut compression with halfway decent struts on road use. MAYBE an off-camber hard right at 45+mph with fat people in the xB..but even then..
AirRide gave me the option of 5 way adjustables. They are adjusted to 4 (firmer) and I havent felt the strut bottom out. When that happens they need to be replaced anyways cause you have blown the strut or its used up anyways.
Heck, I think if you got some decent tires on the xB you would never even notice a difference in handling between a 4 valve and 8 valve system. The grip on the tires would be enough to compensate for the difference in pressure.
I'm with you Lance. Not flaming or whatever...Just discussing what I think.
I think the myth of a F/B setup being THAT MUCH worse than a F/B/S/S needs to be killed though. I agree that there is a difference, but its VERY minimal and wouldn't be noticable on daily drivers/spirited driving except under that "perfect cicumstance."
11-29-2005, 01:32 PM
#20
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The struts have very little to do with side-to-side transfer. That is mostly springs and sway bars. I can't prove it but I would think an exit ramp at 60 would be terrifying in a car with only 4 valves. Maybe the sway bars and solid rear end are enough to keep it from being too scary.
All a shock or strut does is damper. (Makes the springs quit bouncing). 4 valves may work for a lot of reasons but shocks or struts aren’t the reason they may work ok. For your argument to work, you shocks would have to get harder to push down as you turn, which they don’t. I agree that you continue to use reasoning that would make the strut a load bearing part, which its not.
F/B is most likely ok for normal driving. But I think it would end ugly if you had to make evasive maneuvers at interstate speeds. You may only have a 2-psi transfer with a normal turn, but I’d bet that transfer could get insanely high in a hard turn under heavy braking.
Also 2 pressure gauges installed in the same vessel at different places maybe giving false reading. I am not sure why, but this doesn’t seem like a very accurate way to test it.
All a shock or strut does is damper. (Makes the springs quit bouncing). 4 valves may work for a lot of reasons but shocks or struts aren’t the reason they may work ok. For your argument to work, you shocks would have to get harder to push down as you turn, which they don’t. I agree that you continue to use reasoning that would make the strut a load bearing part, which its not.
F/B is most likely ok for normal driving. But I think it would end ugly if you had to make evasive maneuvers at interstate speeds. You may only have a 2-psi transfer with a normal turn, but I’d bet that transfer could get insanely high in a hard turn under heavy braking.
Also 2 pressure gauges installed in the same vessel at different places maybe giving false reading. I am not sure why, but this doesn’t seem like a very accurate way to test it.