inadaquate airflow, weird smell, front intake 08 XB, MOD FIX
04-17-2008, 08:29 PM
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inadaquate airflow, weird smell, front intake 08 XB, MOD FIX
Welcome to the ZIO MOD thread!! In here we have windy discussions about strange smells, calculations and funny people trying to convince me I'm totally wrong and I don't smell anything!! come along on this wild admin-edited adventure, wont you?
Hey everyone, I bought my XB back at christmas time, since then I have been smelling very hot rubber everytime I turn her off.
I took her to the dealer and they told me it was not a problem, however the smells continued those hoses were getting way too hot so that means the solid-state sensors and wiring insulation was cooking too, Note: rubber gets brittle on the outside and fails or melts and expands under high heat conditions.
THE FRONT BUMPER:
I thought about it for a while and realized that the engine compartment is sealed off from airflow really quite well. looking at the front bumper and examining the dirt pattern on the radiator I saw that 65% of the radiator fresh air-flow was being blocked by the front bumper and this most likely was the culprit, after examining the fresh air intake on the "Factory" grill I saw that this design DEFLECTED most of the incoming air at speed. Now this may not cause a problem until the radiator down below which is allowed cool air becomes very dirty and blocked by road oils and dirts bugs etc. After this happens the radiator loses it's cooling efficiency and becomes much less effective and that's when REAL problems would occur not just funny smells.
I applied a mod to my front bumper to Uncover my radiator and allow for proper airflow as per the rated BTU of the radiator which requires 80% airflow to work to specs. I will replace the factory grill as well when I can find one that won't block the air as much as the super tight billet grills.
Aluminum is a complex metal, and the motor and tranny are made from it, when aluminum gets really hot it super-expands which could lead to failures in the bearing races in the motor and the tranny if the tolerances are too far off due to high heat warpage. Of course this wouldn't happen for a while (I'd estimate just over 100K miles.) depending upon road oil exposure, and dirt accumulation and would appear as a high-mileage engine or tranny failure not a design flaw caused by radiator blockage. Many of the XB's are Automatic or auto-shift designs which puts a high heat load on the tranny and has to be dissapated through the radiator, these high heat pulses can damage the tranny by causing premature failures in the disk material of the automatic transmission if not dissapated immediately this blocks the tranny pump or blocks fluid cooling channels with little chuncks of the disk material. The tranny filter is not replaced in most cases for up to 50K miles, oops it may be too late by then.
The heat generated in the transmission friction disks can be very high, far exceeding the "normal" less than boilng temps of the radiator, if not removed quickly and effectively, the transmission could fail.
I plan on louvering my hood soon too to get rid of the "sealed" engine compartment effect besides it will look cool too.
I'd guess most of you have never worked with finite analysis software for thermal design, I have, and I see a problem and a simple solution- cut some vent holes in your front bumper and louver your hood. See my profile for a pic on what it "should" look like when you are done with the front bumper.
This radiator air-flow blockage problem exists on most "NEW" cars on the road today- but the XB 08 is one of the worst I've seen and I bought one, so naturally i'd have to fix it. Fix yours today!
I love my XB and will do anything to save her from a bad thermal design engineer, wouldn't you?
Note to scion: Radiators need fresh air, not air deflection plates mounted in front of them. duh.
Zio
Hey everyone, I bought my XB back at christmas time, since then I have been smelling very hot rubber everytime I turn her off.
I took her to the dealer and they told me it was not a problem, however the smells continued those hoses were getting way too hot so that means the solid-state sensors and wiring insulation was cooking too, Note: rubber gets brittle on the outside and fails or melts and expands under high heat conditions.
THE FRONT BUMPER:
I thought about it for a while and realized that the engine compartment is sealed off from airflow really quite well. looking at the front bumper and examining the dirt pattern on the radiator I saw that 65% of the radiator fresh air-flow was being blocked by the front bumper and this most likely was the culprit, after examining the fresh air intake on the "Factory" grill I saw that this design DEFLECTED most of the incoming air at speed. Now this may not cause a problem until the radiator down below which is allowed cool air becomes very dirty and blocked by road oils and dirts bugs etc. After this happens the radiator loses it's cooling efficiency and becomes much less effective and that's when REAL problems would occur not just funny smells.
I applied a mod to my front bumper to Uncover my radiator and allow for proper airflow as per the rated BTU of the radiator which requires 80% airflow to work to specs. I will replace the factory grill as well when I can find one that won't block the air as much as the super tight billet grills.
Aluminum is a complex metal, and the motor and tranny are made from it, when aluminum gets really hot it super-expands which could lead to failures in the bearing races in the motor and the tranny if the tolerances are too far off due to high heat warpage. Of course this wouldn't happen for a while (I'd estimate just over 100K miles.) depending upon road oil exposure, and dirt accumulation and would appear as a high-mileage engine or tranny failure not a design flaw caused by radiator blockage. Many of the XB's are Automatic or auto-shift designs which puts a high heat load on the tranny and has to be dissapated through the radiator, these high heat pulses can damage the tranny by causing premature failures in the disk material of the automatic transmission if not dissapated immediately this blocks the tranny pump or blocks fluid cooling channels with little chuncks of the disk material. The tranny filter is not replaced in most cases for up to 50K miles, oops it may be too late by then.
The heat generated in the transmission friction disks can be very high, far exceeding the "normal" less than boilng temps of the radiator, if not removed quickly and effectively, the transmission could fail.
I plan on louvering my hood soon too to get rid of the "sealed" engine compartment effect besides it will look cool too.
I'd guess most of you have never worked with finite analysis software for thermal design, I have, and I see a problem and a simple solution- cut some vent holes in your front bumper and louver your hood. See my profile for a pic on what it "should" look like when you are done with the front bumper.
This radiator air-flow blockage problem exists on most "NEW" cars on the road today- but the XB 08 is one of the worst I've seen and I bought one, so naturally i'd have to fix it. Fix yours today!
I love my XB and will do anything to save her from a bad thermal design engineer, wouldn't you?
Note to scion: Radiators need fresh air, not air deflection plates mounted in front of them. duh. Zio
04-17-2008, 11:53 PM
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exactly when the failures will occur...
When the electric fans give out:
Over the rated lifespan of an electric fan, over time, these wear out and get weaker and slower, right about the time when they are spinning but not forcing the air through the radiator well, the problems associated with this radiator airflow blockage will become readily appearant as engine overheating and transmission failures occur due to high heat loads not being removed by the non-functional, air-flow blocked radiator system.
Most of the systems under the hood rely upon the temperatures remaining a constant but also remaining below a threshold level of about 220 degrees F. When the radiative system cannot remove heat and the heat remains trapped under the "sealed" engine compartment, failures in this model will occur due to high heat.
The additional cool air from the modified bumper will help extend the life of the fans, and help by keeping the engine compartment cooler.
Louvering the hood directly above and extending back from the Exhaust manifold will increase the lifespan of the engine by saving the Rubber & Plastic components of the engine from high heat loads surrounding this component. The Louvering will extend the life of hoses, belts and any rubber or plastic components, including wiring by keeping them cooler.
The radiator hose closest to the exhaust manifold should bend away from not towards the exhaust manifold to help in preventing failures from directed heat loads from the exhaust manifold, right now the bend points right at the exhaust manifold, and this hose should be redesigned to angle away from this high heat component.
A simple removal/modification of materials will fix this heat problem and these issues should be taken seriously if you want to protect your investment.
Zio
Over the rated lifespan of an electric fan, over time, these wear out and get weaker and slower, right about the time when they are spinning but not forcing the air through the radiator well, the problems associated with this radiator airflow blockage will become readily appearant as engine overheating and transmission failures occur due to high heat loads not being removed by the non-functional, air-flow blocked radiator system.
Most of the systems under the hood rely upon the temperatures remaining a constant but also remaining below a threshold level of about 220 degrees F. When the radiative system cannot remove heat and the heat remains trapped under the "sealed" engine compartment, failures in this model will occur due to high heat.
The additional cool air from the modified bumper will help extend the life of the fans, and help by keeping the engine compartment cooler.
Louvering the hood directly above and extending back from the Exhaust manifold will increase the lifespan of the engine by saving the Rubber & Plastic components of the engine from high heat loads surrounding this component. The Louvering will extend the life of hoses, belts and any rubber or plastic components, including wiring by keeping them cooler.
The radiator hose closest to the exhaust manifold should bend away from not towards the exhaust manifold to help in preventing failures from directed heat loads from the exhaust manifold, right now the bend points right at the exhaust manifold, and this hose should be redesigned to angle away from this high heat component.
A simple removal/modification of materials will fix this heat problem and these issues should be taken seriously if you want to protect your investment.
Zio
04-18-2008, 12:26 AM
#3
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Wow you have thought a lot about this... but it seems almost ALL cars are designed with limiter radiator exposer... So it must be some conspiracy right???
04-18-2008, 01:12 AM
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I never had to buy something called "finite analysis software for thermal design" to know my engine gets hot. It is suppose to get hot. Engines all run hot these days. Some cars you can't even see the radiator. I think your sotware over analyzed the situation. Just drive the darn car. You have a warranty and with Toyota's reputation for quality, don't you think the engineers who designed these cars knew what they were doing? I got a good idea to keep it cool. Why not remove the whole bumper and hood?
04-18-2008, 01:19 AM
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Do you think? I do.
lol- @ conspiracy?
I think a lot more than most people about product failures- it's been my job for years.
Since the advent of good fluid dynamics software, scientists and engineers have been able to better predict failures due to thermal stresses, the happenstance that this coincided with the radiator "blocked" design becoming the standard in automobile design, could this be a coincidence or a conspiracy? You decide. I am going to try to prevent the failure of my automobile from my "predicted" failure in design by venting my bumper and engine compartment.
The old XB had vents across the bumper.
Zio
I think a lot more than most people about product failures- it's been my job for years.
Since the advent of good fluid dynamics software, scientists and engineers have been able to better predict failures due to thermal stresses, the happenstance that this coincided with the radiator "blocked" design becoming the standard in automobile design, could this be a coincidence or a conspiracy? You decide. I am going to try to prevent the failure of my automobile from my "predicted" failure in design by venting my bumper and engine compartment.
The old XB had vents across the bumper.
Zio
04-18-2008, 01:25 AM
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Well, it's you car so have it. I am glad I am not as smart as you because with my pea size brain, I have a hard enough time figuring what wax to use.
04-18-2008, 01:32 AM
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well. ya got me convinced....... Now will I do something about it.. If I can find a good "MOD SHOP" that can cut out me some vents & make a grill for them at a decent price, then I'll do it.......... thanks for your input, zio........ jh
04-18-2008, 04:14 PM
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That vent you speak of on the old xB is only 2" high... and the lower grill is smaller the the new one... So if you where to combine all three on the old xB you would get roughly the same amount of air flow space as the new ones allows... I do agree that the top/main grille is very restrictive and will probably replace it for looks/performance purposes...
But the main culprit to your mass failure problem is the damn bumper! who does he think he is keeping us all safe and what not.... i reckon we take them off and then our automobiles will last forever...
But the main culprit to your mass failure problem is the damn bumper! who does he think he is keeping us all safe and what not.... i reckon we take them off and then our automobiles will last forever...
04-18-2008, 05:57 PM
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don't "remove" your bumper, Duh.
lol@ remove bumper comment...
Cutting holes in the 1/8" plastic bumper cover above the actual metal bumpre underneath does not remove it shafnasty, nor does it reduce safety, but it does increase airflow to the engine compartment which is what this MOD thread is about.
The highest pressure threshhold across the front of the bumper is when the vehicle is in motion, so the slit opening all the way across the old XB bumper would be more effective than the 2nd gen not having any venting on that point of the vehicle.
Check out the pic on my profile and see that the bumper is still there.
Zio
Cutting holes in the 1/8" plastic bumper cover above the actual metal bumpre underneath does not remove it shafnasty, nor does it reduce safety, but it does increase airflow to the engine compartment which is what this MOD thread is about.
The highest pressure threshhold across the front of the bumper is when the vehicle is in motion, so the slit opening all the way across the old XB bumper would be more effective than the 2nd gen not having any venting on that point of the vehicle.
Check out the pic on my profile and see that the bumper is still there.
Zio
04-19-2008, 02:50 AM
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I worked with metal and many different kinds of it (blast furnace, clean rooms, alluminum tele-communication card chassis, etc.) and it seems to me that the secret to a cool engine is to keep your gauge temp in a normal range. I have never smelled any strange odors or felt any excessive heat on my xb2. My ford sport trac and my 2500 chevy pickup 4x4 had twice or three times the heat of my 4 cyl. scion. You may be right there is a great amount of heat in any 4 cyl. car yet good maint. on your air cleaners and radiator maint. too, should be enough for the longevity of our precious xbs. I will of course take your research under review for summer time is upon us, but it seems you may have a problem with your car that the techs. seem to have missed. All the best in your research and keep us posted! 
04-20-2008, 09:32 AM
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after 2 days with vented bumper
Hi everyone!
I thought I would update you, After 2 days of steady driving on both the freeway and side roads, I am happy to report that the hot rubber smell is not detectable any more!! Yea~
Before I vented my bumper, after driving, I got out of the car I could smell it, kinda a cross between cooling fluid and hot rubber, but I had the cooling system pressure checked at the dealer it wasn't leaking so it must have been the hot rubber and plastics.
Anyways it seems to be gone, so good riddance to that.
Zio
I thought I would update you, After 2 days of steady driving on both the freeway and side roads, I am happy to report that the hot rubber smell is not detectable any more!! Yea~
Before I vented my bumper, after driving, I got out of the car I could smell it, kinda a cross between cooling fluid and hot rubber, but I had the cooling system pressure checked at the dealer it wasn't leaking so it must have been the hot rubber and plastics.
Anyways it seems to be gone, so good riddance to that.
Zio
04-20-2008, 05:09 PM
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some of us would love to see photos of your mod.
04-20-2008, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by danos_XBox
it seems to me that the secret to a cool engine is to keep your gauge temp in a normal range
that dial on the dashboard barely qualifies as a temperature gauge so I hope you meant using a dedicated water/oil temp gauges and somehow trying to keep the car in a "normal" operating temperature is the key to prolonging component life.
however, i'm also bugged by..drilling holes and louvers to save a few 10 dollar hoses...it seems like overkill. its a scion...
04-21-2008, 02:50 AM
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hey, it worked!
Hey man, it worked!
There's more than hoses under the hood, Solid state sensors break down with prolonged heat unless these are very special, very expensive specificly designed, high heat, long service life sensors.
Of course they won't all fail at once- they hardly ever do, it'll be spaced over a period of time, Specific energetic loads for specific times for specific heats, sound frequecies, vibrational effects moisture effects vs specific materials and PN junctions, it can all be very correctly estimated thoughout it's servicable life, ok?
Most sensor manufacturers could give you a base upon which to work with for a report to that effect.
I will be posting exact measurements and hole placement diagrams soon.
Zio
There's more than hoses under the hood, Solid state sensors break down with prolonged heat unless these are very special, very expensive specificly designed, high heat, long service life sensors.
Of course they won't all fail at once- they hardly ever do, it'll be spaced over a period of time, Specific energetic loads for specific times for specific heats, sound frequecies, vibrational effects moisture effects vs specific materials and PN junctions, it can all be very correctly estimated thoughout it's servicable life, ok?
Most sensor manufacturers could give you a base upon which to work with for a report to that effect.
I will be posting exact measurements and hole placement diagrams soon.
Zio
04-21-2008, 02:56 AM
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Chill out homie.
They designed the 2AZ-FE to be hot running in order to be more fuel efficient, the hotter it runs, the more efficient the fuel is burnt.
It's that simple.
/thread.
They designed the 2AZ-FE to be hot running in order to be more fuel efficient, the hotter it runs, the more efficient the fuel is burnt.
It's that simple.
/thread.
04-21-2008, 04:44 AM
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[shrug]
funny how there isn't droves of people with that "burning rubber smell" guess the engineers that designed mine musta done it right
[/shrug]
04-21-2008, 05:32 AM
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Wow, I just saw your profile pic, and that really looks... silly?
I'm sure the automotive engineers that have years and years of experience designing and building the most reliable cars on the road will know what will work and what will not. I think your judgment on the whole situation is a little extreme and will probably give you no benefit other then a weird looking front end.
In the end, your huge holes will not outlast somebody that leaves the car-as-designed. But if it makes you feel better at night, then power to you.
I'm sure the automotive engineers that have years and years of experience designing and building the most reliable cars on the road will know what will work and what will not. I think your judgment on the whole situation is a little extreme and will probably give you no benefit other then a weird looking front end.
In the end, your huge holes will not outlast somebody that leaves the car-as-designed. But if it makes you feel better at night, then power to you.
04-21-2008, 10:13 AM
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19? lol.
Do I really need to comment on your "hommie" and "silly look" comments it sounds like none of you have seen the movie "idiocracy", this isn't a game, it's life and I'm not getting paid to tell you these things, I'm merely trying to present a solution to a problem.
Semiconductors like to stay cooler in powered applications ask any powered semiconductor engineer.
My results are valid, and my "holes" will be covered with neato mesh or some other grill material when I find one that I like, till then they will be vent holes that function to keep my rubber and plastic engine bay cooler than before therefore prolonging it's life. I may just leave them like that too.
Zio
Semiconductors like to stay cooler in powered applications ask any powered semiconductor engineer.
My results are valid, and my "holes" will be covered with neato mesh or some other grill material when I find one that I like, till then they will be vent holes that function to keep my rubber and plastic engine bay cooler than before therefore prolonging it's life. I may just leave them like that too.
Zio
04-21-2008, 01:31 PM
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Hey Guys. Lessen the heat on zio. He has done something to lessen a particular problem that his vehicle had. If any of us had this happening, I'm sure we would take care of it in the best way for us. I and everone else I've spoken to have never had the heat or smell issue. But.... if this cured his vehicle Great! Now looking at the profile it is unique and, if mine, I would blacken out the section of the imbossing Like the look of some of the white xb2s on this site.
Glad it took care of the prob.
If mine developed this smell and burning I'd make the techs. find it and get rid of the problem via Scion. Still glad it worked.
Glad it took care of the prob.
If mine developed this smell and burning I'd make the techs. find it and get rid of the problem via Scion. Still glad it worked.
04-21-2008, 02:50 PM
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I see no reason to bash the dude, seems like he knows his stuff. On the other hand that's a pretty radical solution IMHO. There has to be a more appealing less intrusive way to cool it. Thanks Zio, seems like you did your homework and then implemented.