GOTTA love the Wiki!
~SM

 

i found this funny...
Scion has heritage at 3yrs old.

maybe more like Scions business plan than heritage..or philosophy.

i know you prolly ment scion (aka...parent Toyota) heritage.


just found that funny...thats all...

back on-topic.

i dont think HP numbers play much into car buying... everyone i know starts with price, then adds style and features.
if it was all cost, poeple would have bought more xA's as it had the same HP as the xB and was cheaper....

.02

 

I agree I think price is the biggest factor. You also have to realize that while many scion owners are on this website and active many more are not. The difference between the two groups are that the Scion life members are mostly car enthusiasts, while the others who don't care just want a cheap reliable car. So to them HP is not as big a deal.

I once read someones sig on some forum that read something like

1. Cheap
2. Fast
3. Dependable
Pick two, but you can't have all three!

And many people buying scions want 1 and 3, not necessarily 2.

I'd also like to see if some one swaps the xD motor for the vvtl-i and 6-speed that was in the Celica-GTS. sounds like fun!

 

Im excited for the potential of this motor.

I foresee turbo kits doing quite well on this motor (when tuned properly) due to the Dual VVT-i (more control over the motor) and I just hope the stock internals are built well for N/A modders! Im hoping with proper tuning it can put out 150-160 (N/A) .. we will just have to wait and see!

 

I was referring to Scion's parent-company/manufacturer Toyota, because they have historically been pretty conservative.

 

yes, toyota has been conservative...
i figured you were going with that thought, but the other way sounded amusing to me.

its all good.

 

Mhm. All with love.

Happy B-day, by the way. Yay for 21!

 

I'm a big Toyota criticizer (meaning I love the brand but tear my hair out sometimes at what they do) and I'm researching the xD to potentially replace my current vehicle and I just had to jump in this conversation. There are a few points to this issue. The main thing to consider is how Toyota prioritize's the "performance" aspects of the engine.

1.) Durability/Longevity. Toyota is known for their long lasting engines and relatively cheap maintenance. Obviously a higher performance engine puts on more stresses onto a motor. The more stresses on the motor the shorter the lifespan (typically). The more stresses on the engine more likelihood that something will break, and these are NOT cheap nor easy engines to maintain/fix anymore.

2.) Gas mileage. Toyota also has a reputation for very efficient vehicles, just look at the sales of the Prius and the continued success of the outdated Corolla. A high output engine requires lots of air and more importantly from an OEM point of view, lots of fuel to keep things safe. I saw a post in this forum bemoaning the "bad" gas mileage of the xD compared to the xA and that's what? an estimated difference of 5 or so MPG (different EPA testing standards). Imagine the reaction from the general populace if the MPG dropped by over 10mpg...

3.) Emissions. Toyota again has a reputation at stake, very "green" vehicles. It's what helped bring out the success of the Prius, it's one of their core philosophies. Toyota's VVTI technology was first adopted as a means for Toyota to beat the emissions standards back in the early 90's, the Dual VVTI is just an evolution of that.

4.) With the specs of the 2zrfe engine it is looking like it would have some awesome high end performance with some very good low-end torque and midrange numbers...I think it has the potential to put out 100hp/liter with 93 octane (look at the 4th gen 2.0l 3sge with Dual VVTI putting out 210hp in the 1st gen altezza). But where will you find a Scion buyer willing to pay for premium every time they have to fill up?Toyota has effectively de-tuned the engine with the engine management system. Take for example the 6250rpm redline in all current Toyota vehicles. Think it's a conincidence that emissions testing only goes up to around 6000rpms? the 3.5L V6 in the new Camry and the 1zzfe in the current corolla are heavily de-tuned IMO.

Ending on a positive note though Toyota typically underrates their engines so I wouldn't be surprised to see some dynos of complete bone stock 2zrfe's putting out 120hp to the wheels.

 

in the UK the 2ZR-FE puts out 131bhp (133 DIN hp) at 6,000rpm, 173Nm at 4,400rpm
for comperison

 

Wrong.

True, EPA fuel estimates are based on testing that occurs in very controlled environments with the cars running on dynamometers.

But long before that car is ever strapped to a dyno, they perform a coast down test where the vehicle is driven up to around 80 mph, placed in neutral and costs to a stop. Using the recorded time for how long it takes the car to coast from 70 to 0, they can establish road load coefficients, which basically establish the resistance due to rolling friction, aerodynamics and parasitic losses.

Now, they strap the car on the dyno and perform the same test where they run the vehicle up to 80 mph and let it cost down. They can tweak the resistance of the dynamometer until they get the same coast down time on the dyno as the got outside. Thus they've calibrated their equipment to very much take wind drag and other forces into effect.

Also, remember that the 1.8L making 180 HP uses premium fuel.....not really an attractive feature for an economy car.

 

Isn't it usually the case w/ Honda that they have higher compression ratios then Toyota's = thus the slightly higher hp's ???? A lower compression ratio = tends to lead to better durability of the engine. Also, a DOHC engine- from everything I've read leads to a more durable/ better balanced engine + better torque engine .

The 2zz engine sounds dope ... and I may have a future application for it in a car I'm thinking about buying in 1-2 years , but done right I should also get the 6-speed tranny = parts will be at least $2000-2500 , then installation $$$ ... ugggggg. Plus the fact that I'd have to run premium fuel in it Uggggg some more. Either way, the engine swap in that car would not happen until the stock motor takes a dump @ say 250K miles, etc ..... so I'd have about 150K miles to save up my pennys

Will be keeping an eye on those dual VVT-i engines , could be very good

 

Higher compression does = more power, but more power doesn't make up much of the difference when you compare say toyota's engines to honda.

You usually gain 2-3whp per every 1 full ratio raised.

For instance: 10:5:1 = say 105whp , swap to 11:5:1 you should see 107-108whp.

Of course all of this varies depending on other modifications, etc.

When i had my xb i swapped to 11:5:1 and then 11:1 pistons and i gained +/- 5-8whp based on tune as well as everything working together, not separate, etc.

Point is, pistons alone doesnt effect much of anything.

Toyota has always been conservative. especially when it comes to hp per liter.

2.4l = 160hp is crap compared to the numerous 1.8, 2.0, 2.2l's turning out anywhere from 180-300hp from various manufactures.

The funny thing is, most of these 1.8 and 2.0l's have more power AND better mpg than the toyota equivalent..not all of them, but many do.

Toyota really needs to step their game up with performance, if not raise the #'s. drop the weight.

Only car's powered by a toyota right now i'd drive would be a lotus.

 

One thing to remember also honda SIR / type R engines do NOT
have good low down torque numbers
and torque is what leads to an effortless City car, VS a top speed car IE VW TDI golf VS 2.0l golf the TDI has less HP but BETTER torque /torque rise = EZ car to do city / tailback driving!

 

PS BMW MINI's use a Yaris D4D TD engine!

 

sorry to intrude... i am thinking of getting the new ist (xD) here in my country... and was wondering of the power to wt ratio..(cos the ist engine is a 1.5) i think this can be easily checked against the century sprint..0-100km/h (or 0-60miles).. so qn..for the stock xD with 1.8..what is the 0-100km/h (or 0-60miles)?

 

i went from driving a bare ford focus (2.0 liter engine and 110 hp) to the xD. that extra 18 hp makes the xD feel zippy to me

i'm also getting much better gas mileage! :D